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Sight Screen

Sunday, September 04, 2005

It hardly matters

Australia got through the Essex barrier without much problems. But with hardly any gains either. They learned that their bowlers, minus Warne and McGrath, are not as effective on flat tracks (read: they are not miracle workers) and that Hayden can still flay poor attacks. But so can one of his prospective usurper Hodge (he also scored run-a-ball 150+ today). Gilchrist can't though. He's gone down way too much in confidence it seems, and his prospective replacement Haddin scored a quick 50+.

Not that all this matters, Hayden and Gilchrist are too precious to be handed over, just yet. Even if this is a crucial ashes test. Aus management, and selectors, feel that the chances of these two coming good are still better than a newcomer coming in and firing right away.

Eng, meanwhile, have recalled Anderson into the side. Tremlett misses out because he's short of match practice in recent times. And he's short of match practice because he was mostly with Eng squad as num 12! Talk of 'justifications', the Eng selectors are trying to outdo our desi version (remember Balaji, after getting just one ODI in SL, being dropped from Zim ODIs because they want to give chance to newcomers!)

Anyways, our Indian selectors, as we already know, have proven themselves to be equally patient while holding their judgment on our star performer of past, Saurav. Whether its for same reasons or not shouldn't matter. And Saurav would one day learn that when one is going through a lean patch, it doesn't matter at the end of the day whether he got out playing from the middle of the bat, a full blooded shot, or a lame attempt to fending. People Just Want Runs On The Board. Or so it seems. It also doesn't matter whether today he was looking to leave the short ball instead of falling for the hook/pull bait.

But, in case of some others like Rao, its not the runs that matter, its the speed at which he got those, and the manner in which he got those. (And it doesn't matter whether he was grafting as per team instructions or personal will or even the fact that Saurav Ganguly specially praised him along with Yuv and Dhoni at the post match interview, obviously for some unfathomable reasons).

While in some other cases, as Yuv is finding out, it also doesn't matter how many runs and in what manner he gets it. Because he is already seen as inconsistent performer, playing for his place, performing only when under the axe. As Sunil Gavaskar was also heard commenting, to him it seems that the main batting lineup is the 'untouchables' of the team i.e. they won't go anywhere, however they perform, while the bowlers can be shuffled around.

So what did we get from this match. That not everyone will get the runs on all the days, and its ok as long as we get to see the right application. And that was there for the Indians, as much as there can be in such a low consequential match. The batsmen were all 'looking' to play well, the fielding was still good. The bowling was as good as it can be given that some of them were getting their first game of the season. Rahul and Veeru would need to sort out things in their mind, because not much looks wrong out in the middle(Veeru can move his feet a bit more, but in his case that's hardly consequential)

And also that its a pleasant problem of plenty for the team management as a choice between Yuv and Kaif for that all important middle order slot in the test lineup.

50 Comments:

  • his place in the side should be judged independent of what we do in final. If he has to be axed, it should be done if he fails (and even if we win). And if not, then dont do it just because we lost.

    By Blogger worma, at 15:12  

  • btw, Sania match on. Are you still thinking cricket ? :)

    By Blogger worma, at 15:12  

  • yeah its exciting :)...she is matching everyone atleast in power. If she can reduce her unforced errors over time...it looks good for her

    By Blogger worma, at 15:35  

  • I would keep him even if he fails in the finals ! He hasn't failed enough in ODIs to start thinking of removing him yet.

    By Blogger worma, at 15:45  

  • and btw, would you keep sehwag in the side if he fails in the finals ?

    By Blogger worma, at 15:48  

  • yeah Sharapova is pouncing on her second serve ! And she is not getting enough percentange of first serves right, so its coming down to 2nd too often

    By Blogger worma, at 16:05  

  • dark nights, is it because of this innings ? IMO they were already almost sure to retain him, as I said in the post also. Since its too much of a gamble to risk a newcomer into what is virtually a one-off match. Its a bigger gamble than counting on Hayden to come good.

    By Blogger worma, at 16:09  

  • tiger, yes you are right, I agree on the captaincy thing. But I dont think either Sehwag or he is going to be dropped, or atleast not on basis of what we have seen so far. lets wait and watch how they come out in the test matches also.

    And as long as ganguly is there in the 14, he will be the captain and also be there in 11. If he is dropped, then it would be complete drop (and btw, thats why they havent appointed him captain beyond this tour, isnt that so).

    I personally dont have an opinion, based on the team's performance so far, as to who should be 'dropped' (I would like to call it sitting on the fringe, having good bench streangth) when Sachin comes back. Maybe JP would be rested, because sachin can bowl in Indian conditions ? Maybe they would rotate players, esp going by how we progress in the series.

    But why do we want to think about Sachin's return ? And why try to find a weak link ? I hope we are able to rest an 'in-form' player by that time....because that would mean we have bench strength. Thats why its important that Rao and Raina also come into some kind of form, so that they can be used in the right roles when situation demands (e.g. when you have dravid missing a game, who do you call ? rao is likely being developed for that role, or when you need a stronger bowling option, drop a batsmen and take in JP etc etc)

    By Blogger worma, at 16:15  

  • meanwhile Sania departs. Her service game just fell apart after 5 games in first set.

    By Blogger worma, at 16:16  

  • yeah I know that one, about katich being promoted, but that even worse, katich is not exactly in prime form, but has looked to give some valuable stability to their lower middle order. They wouldnt take that away. And yes, some confidence surely, as he has spent time in the middle, so surely some confidence. But what I meant was that they had made their mind irrespective of this innings.

    And btw, Shane Warne said before this game that Aus would have preferred a rest instead of this tour game(although as a personal opinion I presume) so things havent changed as much from Waugh days. I dont think Aus were looking forward to this game either. Atleast I didnt read anything to this effect.

    And this may yet prove to be a turning point for Hayden (but didnt he score another century in a warmup game ?) or it may not. Saurav Ganguly has had similar success in county, and we are yet to see if that was a turning point or not (he hasn't played a test innings yet). Btw I think he also scored a big hundred in Ranji, last season. So these turning points, sometimes when they click you associate them, other times you dont. There's no proof of their effectiveness one way or the other.

    By Blogger worma, at 16:36  

  • ajit, Dravid has gone through this patches earlier. Similar, and even worse patches. In ODIs and also in tests (yeah it sounds unbelievable now, I know:) ). Nothing to do with captaincy I think. In fact this patch started in SL, remember ? At that time, we assume, that he was not aware of the captaincy issues.

    By Blogger worma, at 16:38  

  • rishi, I dont feel I know enough of tennis to post anything :) Already wrote above some of my observations, but I guess most of you would have judged that much already. If you've watched the game, and write something, I can put it up as a post ?

    By Blogger worma, at 16:41  

  • Hi Guys, just got back from a webless weekend. feels weird not being in touch with the world...

    Too bad about Saniya. Good while she lasted, but I guess she has a better chance of winning a grand slam then Ganguly scoring a century. Good to see him and Shewag continue their form.

    And Hayden? On one end, that guy avaerages 103.5, 3 100's, 3 50's in six and on the other he averages 22.5 in 8 innings with a top score or 36. Hard to believe the stats belong to the same guy in the same summer. Amazing...

    And lastly, this comment caught my eye.

    Coach John Buchanan remained pleased with the efforts his bowlers showed, however.

    "Generally, I thought we bowled and fielded well," he said. "There were positives from all of them. It is important we go through the physical demands of the game and all of our bowlers did that OK."

    This after Essex scored 504/4 in 105 overs. This 'New Australia' sure beats 'Old England' hands down. At least they were not whining about the benign nature of the wicket....

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 03:45  

  • Another word of advice for Sania from a tennis novice:

    Don't watch Indian cricket... :)

    By Blogger Shakeel Abedi, at 03:47  

  • Surabh, welcome back. I though Buchanan did mention the flat track and fast outfield in the same article. Can't seem to find it now.

    And about poor form of Sehwag and Ganguly (also Dravid)...well what can I say....maybe this. Now we 'know' that Kaif is in good form. He got a good delivery today, and was out early, but thats ok because we 'know' already that he's in good form, right ? What if he had got a similar delivery early in his innings, last time around ? Think about it. And no this is not about any particular player, its more on the ways in which we form our opinions (in cricketing context, I don't intend to start a philosophical argument. Not on a monday morning atleast :-) )

    By Blogger worma, at 04:07  

  • yes vshan we should know by seeing the player bat. Can you tell me, from this last Ind-Zim game, what exactly did you see to tell you that Ganguly was out of form ?
    And isn't it so that we were criticising Kaif and Yuv till recently ? What if Yuv had got a good ball early on ? How would we have known ? I thought in the entire SL series and here, Yuv looked more uncomfortable at the crease than Ganguly ! (he himself says that he had to work hard early on)

    By Blogger worma, at 04:19  

  • or are we so judgmental and cynical to assume that although ganguly was playing right from the middle of the bat (unlike the sachin nudges and pushes) he would still have got out even if someone had not held his spectacular catch ?

    Like we are cynical to assume, these days, that once India is 4 down for so few runs, we are going to loose to Zim ? As many people were assuming yesterday ? That we are going to make heroes out of Zim, because thats what we do.(and neve mind the fact that Nz got allout against them)

    By Blogger worma, at 04:21  

  • Worma, I agree cricket is a game of chance, but...

    I think Shewag will come good but not sure about Ganguly. His time, like Hayden's, is past and I think it's not a case of form but cricket.

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 04:22  

  • ..and what were we saying about yuvraj until recently...one hundred and he is satisfied...what if he had got a good delivery early on yesterday (as Kaif did) ? Would we still have thought that ok yuvraj seems to be in form, he is getting more mature, applying himself in the middle, working hard ? Would we have thought all this had be got out early ? By looking at his game and judging ? And not going by the scoreline.

    By Blogger worma, at 04:23  

  • saurabh, thats the problem. The Aussies do not see it as a game of chance (atleast not as much as we do). They see it more logically. They see some method even in the 20 or so runs that Hayden scored in last innings of Trent Bridge and think that he seems to be getting his touch back (yes I read this, Langer saying about Hayden). They discount the chance factor as much as possible. They know anyone, even in prime of form, can get a good ball early on. They know anyone, even in the best of form, can be outdone by a spectacular catch.

    To me, the 'looking at the game' part of the best judge, as vshan says. And going by that, SG looks more likely to come back today than Hayden.

    And I still believe that Hayden would(and should) be persisted with.

    By Blogger worma, at 04:27  

  • vshan I agree ganguly is not playing the short ball well enough. but is that reason enough to drop him ? have you seen any other player in the world being targetted with short ball so much ? Would they all be comfortable ?

    Or consider this, to date I haven't seen yuv play spin with any confidence ! Even in this century, he played the spinners so carefully, looking ugly each time he made a swipe. Should we drop him for that ? You dont drop any player (not someone of proven value atleast) because he cannot play only one kind of delivery. I dont know ANY player in any team who has been dropped just because of that !

    And honestl, tell me, besides that short delivery (which he is still figuring out how to play) how uncomfortable did Ganguly seem in this series to you ? Ofcourse he was troubled by Bond in that one over, and who wouldn't ?

    And btw, I seriously meant that comment as a generic statement, talking about not only Ganguly, but in general how we judge our players. Eg Kaif, Yuvraj etc etc (and now the way we want to throw out Rao)

    By Blogger worma, at 04:32  

  • Worma, though it looks like Hayden has got a good start and then got out to 'one ball', the fact is that he starts struggling when the ball starts reversing and loses his confidence. That to me is not an issue of form but a flaw in his technique.

    Benaud made this observation in the last Test "And this is the point when he starts struggling" And bingo; 2 overs later he was gone...

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 04:35  

  • Worma, Hayden will be presisted with because the Aussies did not come with a back-up plan!!!

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 04:36  

  • But he was struggling loooong before the start of Ashes (as I pointed out long time back in some comments, his failure in tests is longer than Ganguly's !)...so why did they bring him at all ? And why did they bring him without backup plan ?

    And the thing is, even if Hayden is in his prime form, he would not score well in all his innings against this attack in these conditions. So, his second innings in Trent Bridge, his team mates thought he looked like getting back (and yes, to me also he seemed more comfortable) and he didn't get out to reverse. So, the point being, he may be coming back to form(or he may already be there almost) but how would we know from the results, cos he still got out cheaply. Thats my point.

    By Blogger worma, at 04:40  

  • Define form? It's abstract if you add the 'what if'...

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 04:44  

  • I think the Aussies (and most everyone) under estimated this English side and come here with predictions of '5-0'. so there was very little planning and

    Simon Hughes had written an excellent article about what went wrong with the aussies and how they have continued to ignore the writing on the wall. Will try to dig it out...

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 05:01  

  • So how many of us think we are 'die hard' cricket fans? I know it's not fair to compare in terms of who can spend how much to watch the game (as we all have our own financial limitations), but I though this was worth sharing;

    "One fan has even rented a flat overlooking the Oval - paying £23,000 for five days - in an attempt to see the live action of what could potentially be one of the nation's greatest sporting moments in 40 years"

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 05:16  

  • vshan, the Aussies wanted to 'persist' with Hayden...because there is threshhold before dumping a proven performer. Hayden, in their judgment, had not yet crossed that threshhold. But yes, a plan B (a reserve opener) might have been good. Dunno if they have on ready.
    About the bowlers, well Gillespie and Kasper were not in bad for before this tour. They had planned for two reserve fast bowlers in Lee and Tait. That was enough, or atleast that was the max they could have done.

    Agree about Gilchrist, and that is my basis for saying that to some extent all good players would also struggle against this attack. He has been extra bothered because Flintoff has found the right code. He has to work on that.

    Saurabh, sure they would have thought of 5-0 but if they had ignored the potency of Eng attack then they were foolish. Btw I dont think they believed that (you know Aus were the first ones to point out that Harmison would be a great bowler, after the last ashes series, so they should have known that he has matured, and also gone by his success against other sides. And freddie they themselves rated highest in this Eng lineup). What I think they didnt account for was teh quality of backup attack in Jones and Hoggard. They hoped for some respite when harmy and freddie are tired, and they are not getting that now.

    And about defining form....sure its abstract. Doesnt depend on results...or atleast it shouldnt in the short term. In the short term (or immediate term) you have to 'look' and judge. Like the aussies do with Hayden or Gilchrist etc. In the long run you need to go by results also, you cannot just keep looking and saying that 'hey this dude looks like he will come good any day now'. But how long should you persist, that depends on what is the value of the player you are talking about. What is he going to bring to you, if he comes good ? The bigger the offering, the bigger the gamble you have to take on persistence.

    By Blogger worma, at 05:23  

  • LOL :)....well I'm die-hard...but don't have that kind money to blow up :))(even if I did, I think my wife would kill me, if I did that ;-) )

    By Blogger worma, at 05:25  

  • Agree on you last point "bigger the offering, the bigger the gamble you have to take on persistence"

    Hence it is a bit unfair to compare Hayden and Ganguly. Ganguly's value as a batsman is far less then Hayden's (or Gilchrist for that matter).

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 05:33  

  • worma, imagine that guy's face if it rains or the Aussies win in 2 days :-)

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 05:34  

  • read the hysteria surrounding cricket here. It's amazing...

    http://sport.independent.co.uk/cricket/article310177.ece

    I think many people have not yet acknowlegded it but the seeds of this were sown 3 years ago with the birth of Twenty20 cricket. It was a means for people to tune in and watch cricket and start understanding the game.

    And the came the Ashes...

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 05:37  

  • Ganguly's value as a batsmen in ODIs is much more than that of Hayden (who was hardly ever a great ODI player, even in his peak) or Gilchrist (who at his peak was probably as good, but no more, than Ganguly. IMO not as good as Ganguly).

    In test matches, sure their offering is bigger (hence, I think persistence with Hayden is longer than that with Ganguly) but in test matches Ganguly gets a slight tilt in his favour because of the proven captaincy talent that he brings.

    By Blogger worma, at 05:42  

  • yeah saurabh, good report that one. But what about this line Traditionally, cricket has not been followed by women. Is this correct for UK ? We know in Ind there is a big following in women and children. So, which sport is popular in women in UK ? I thought they despised football ?

    And that guy must've hired that flat on a money-return policy :)

    By Blogger worma, at 05:46  

  • ..and oh...Brearly says this in the same report "We are on the verge of being the best team in the world.. This is what I hate...heard it from Boycott, Greig etc on tv also. They think this is the World Cup final of test cricket. And defeating Aus would make them the best in the world !...I hope they are not serious, or alteast think about this emotion more carefully when the whole thing is over (and they have won the series)

    By Blogger worma, at 05:50  

  • Dear Worma,

    You sure got me little confused about what you want to say about "how to judge players".

    Am not sure whether you are saying –
    Mr. X too would have looked out-of-form had he got out early because of a great delivery or great catch received -OR-
    Mr.Y would have regained form had he not been dismissed by that great delivery or great catch.
    If that’s what you are saying, then you are laying too much emphasis on "chance".

    No one would try to judge people based on 1 or 2 innings, and when you try to judge someone on the basis of a good number of innings, you can safely eliminate the bias brought in by luck. Now, what is a good number of innings? it should not be less than, say, 5 or 6. Let’s take 10, it will be highly unlikely that any one would be undone by luck over a span of 10 innings. Hence, stats (of recent past) are a reasonable indicator of talent & form of a player. Stats won’t tell you the complete story, but they are a reasonable proxy. 10 matches should be good enough to even regain form (assuming that talent is always there). Most good players do that. Now comes the most critical question - If you are confident of a player's talent (i.e. class), how many matches will you allow him to regain form?

    My answer would be: once the loss-of-form is evident, I will give him 3-4 matches to scratch his way back to form, and if he at least shows signs of regaining form (scoring a good 20, 30 and dismissed by a great catch or sudden rush of blood) I will give him a couple of more matches. Assuming that the original loss-of-form was ascertained over a span of 5-6 runless innings (and then 3-4 matches to regain form, and 2 more matches to convert 20s,30s to big scores), I would give an established player a max of 10-12 matches, and then dump him. BTW, I said established player here because a new player would n’t have been allowed 5-6 runless innings in the first place :-(

    Now look at the following stats (the runs scored in the last 15 innings):

    Ganguly: 0, 22, 55, 22, 0, 9, 4, 18, 51, 2, 26, 5, 20, 19, 2 (latest)
    Yuvraj: 69, 16, 15, 1, 35, 18, 13, 12, 28, 110, 42, 1, 53, 22, 120 (latest)
    Kaif: 7, 0, 32, 5, 78, 4, 8, 24, 34, 83, 31, 9, 65, 102, 8 (latest)
    Laxman: 20, 107, 14, 1, 12, 37, DNB, 29, 33, 9, 79, 3, 43, 22, 7 (latest)

    Compared to Ganguly’s stats, you would n’t even label those of Yuvraj and Kaif (even Laxman) as loss-of-form :-(

    Applying my theory, Ganguly has lost form much before SL tour, and should have turned the corner after his 51 in SL. But he has gone another 6 innings without a big score. As I said before stats don’t reveal the complete picture, but Ganguly has even “looked” like having re-discovered his touch – in the last few innings.

    You may feel Ganguly is a great captain and hence be given that extra time, but I find it amusing that you are trying to rationalize Ganguly’s performance, by saying – “what would have happened if yuvraj got out early”, “what would have happened if kaif got out early” etc.

    By Blogger Nag, at 06:04  

  • small correction to my last post:

    in the penultimate sentence, I meant to say that "Ganguly has not even “looked” like having re-discovered his touch – in the last few innings."

    By Blogger Nag, at 06:09  

  • dear nag,

    One simple question. Why did you choose only 15 innings ?

    By Blogger worma, at 06:09  

  • And to me, Ganguly has looked more comfortable than RD, Yuv, Kaif early on in their innings.

    By Blogger worma, at 06:10  

  • I chose last 15 innings to compare the stats of Gangs, Yuvi and Kaif in view of my belief that 10-12 innings are good enough for a good player to break back into form. I chose Gangs, Yuvi and Kaif because at the begining of this series all 3 of them are supposedly out-of-form. I had also dug up Laxman's stats to point out how good even Laxman's figures are compared to Gangs.

    I feel that Yuvi and Kaif too were as tentative as Ganguly at the begining their innings (presumably because of lack-of-form), but they scratched aroud and then registered good scores. What I can not understand is why Ganguly wasn't able to do that in ANY of the last 6 innings.

    By Blogger Nag, at 06:25  

  • Worma, Point about women in this country; You got to take this with a pinch of salt. In a country where the media has been so obsessed with Football, its difficult to figure about the truth behind their 'facts and figures'.

    As I mentioned to a friend of mine 3 years ago "Cricket is not as dead as the media makes it out to be in this country. Since 2000, I have found it difficult to buy tickets for any ODI game featuring England and most Test Matches have been sold out for the first 3 days (except the one which feature Bangladesh and Zimbabwe)".

    I think the problem with cricket is the cynism that surrounds the game. Also, when people talk of the 'death' of English cricket, they normally refer to the domestic game (which ironically has more viewers and following than that of any other country including India).

    As for the comments by Mike Brearly, Boycott, etc., I can't see much fault in their reasoning. England have beaten most teams they have played in the last 2-3 so if they do beat the Aussies, they deserve to think they are 'nearly' the Best team in the world.

    Now don't tell me its India....

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 06:25  

  • this Eng team has atleast not beaten SL (home), Ind (home and away), Pak (home and away), Aus (away). And they are close to best ? Dude they need to do this, and probably do it a few times over before they think of being best.

    And note I am not talking about being the dominant team (like Aus of past) because for that they would need to do the above MANY times over.

    I dont know how much of the above list would they need to become ICC num 1, but surely some of it.

    The best team in the world is Aus. Eng beating them closes the gap. That is the simple fact, going by any logic you want to put up.

    India is third...and way behind second in some aspects. Lets first hope we retain that third spot by end of this season. that should be the target, and IMO that wud be an achievement. We can build on that.

    Nag, 10-12 innings is not enough. You defeat the whole point of this debate...i wrote above that the 'thresh-hold' of allowance (which means how many failed innings you shud persist with) depends on the perceived value of the player. You cannot say x innings is enough for EVERYONE. Then that means that past performance of player(which proves his value, and the offering he brings on the table) is hardly of any value ?

    Example: If sachin tendulkar scores less than 20 runs in 15 consecutive ODI innings would you drop him ? If yes, then its your loss, what more can I say.

    By Blogger worma, at 06:33  

  • Thanks vshan,

    it came to me as an after thought that 15 is the smallest statistically signficant number (or was it 12, I should ask our bio-statstician). The actual reason I chose that was because it adequately covers 10-12 match theory of mine, and secondly because "statsguru" at cricinfo website has options like 5,10,15 etc.

    By Blogger Nag, at 06:35  

  • Dear Worma,

    I agree that the 'threshold of allowance" to be given to a player should be based on his percieved value to the team. That's why I remarked that a new player (who value is not yet established) will not be allowed 5-6 runless innings, he will be dumped much before that. But, for an established player 10-12 innings should be good enough, especially if the player is good enough.

    Now, I don't rate Ganguly's percieved value to the team very high, at least now. Let's not confuse with Ganguly's contribution to the team in 1997-2002 with his "percieved value" to the team now.

    By Blogger Nag, at 06:43  

  • the perceived value of ganguly is that he will be able to retain that old form (when he became better than sachin in ODIs for a period!). Whether that perceived value becomes reality or not, that is the 'gamble'. Thats why its called 'perceived' value !!!!

    Note, the perceived value has nothing to do with current form.

    Also, as you say "10-12 innings for esablished player"..again you are generalising. Each and every player has to be judged separately, and a threshhold defined just for him. Look at my example question above (regarding sachin)

    By Blogger worma, at 06:47  

  • Worma, Are you telling me that after this performace, the Aussies are better then England???

    Again, I am not saying they are better then the Aussies were in the last five years but they should definately be rated as the best team in the world after this series (Provided they win the last Test).

    As for the ICC ranking, I personally think it is flawed because it considers too long a period for the rating/ranking. Remember the early 2000's. West Indies were being thrashed left-right and centre but were still ranked higher than England and India because they had a great 'history'. So it will be at least a year before the Aussies will be displaced from the ICC table because of their history.

    If you do have some time, read the series of Articles I wrote for rediff back in March 2002 highlighting the flaws in the ICC ranking).

    http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2002/mar/05col1.htm

    http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2002/mar/06col1.htm

    http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2002/mar/07col1.htm

    http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2002/mar/08col1.htm

    http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2002/mar/10col1.htm

    Not trying to brag, but I haven'yet changed my opinion about this ranking because I want to prove that England are better then the Aussies. In fact, back then I had argued the reverse (if South Africa were to beat the Aussies, they would be ranked number 1 according to the ICX ranking, which in my opinion was wrong).

    For the record, England had to beat Australia 5-0 to go ahead in the table...

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 06:49  

  • yes there are some flaws in ICC ranking, and I think rediff have themselves come out with better ranking system. I dont think Eng would be num 1 in that also ?

    But tell me something, is this a world cup final between Eng and Aus ? No, right ? Its not a world championship they are winning. All this is, is just another test series. So Eng beat Aus, doesnt mean they become better than them (just because they beat a few other teams also shouldnt alter this judgement, unless they had beaten everyone else).

    My point is, you come out with any rating system, and I can bet that Aus would still be higher than Eng. That means they are a better team in the long run ! In the current context sure THIS eng team is better than THIS Aus team at THIS point of time. But as you can see, that statement sounds so ridiculous, hence devise a rating system.

    Either rating system, or play a world championship of test, which if won by Eng, gives them right to be called best in the world.

    Look at it this way, if SL beat Aus today in an ODI series (I believe SL are num 2 ?) would they become the best ODI team in the world ? NO, right ? You either look at ratings (whichever are best in your opinion) or a World Cup winner to give that 'best in the world' title. So how come you are using one series to judge test matches ?

    By Blogger worma, at 06:58  

  • Worma, It's important to distuingish between a Champion, the highest rated team in the world and THE TEAM OF THE MOMENT (all three can be different at any given point in time). And the "MOMENT" is something you and I can freely define to Suite our points of view (One day, one week, two months, one year, etc). In my opinion I define it as 6-12 months for ODI's and 1-2 years in Tests.

    While England's record in ODI against Australia in the last 12 months is great (won 4 , lost 4) I still don't rate them a good ODI side simply because they haven't been consistent in the same period.

    On the other hand, when it comes to Test Matches, in the last 2 years, their record is as good as the Aussies and ON CURRENT FORM, are a better side as well...

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 08:11  

  • Saurabh you say ...when it comes to Test Matches, in the last 2 years, their record is as good as the Aussies and ON CURRENT FORM, are a better side as well... - Don't you see the ambiguity here ? You are comparing the Eng achievement in last 2 years with Aussie in CURRENT FORM ? Why ? Compare it with Aussies achievement in two years ? Apple to apple :-)

    Btw, I agree, if you define the 'team of the moment' thing...Eng are better. But just during the moment (because Aus seem to be down).

    Btw when Aus were good, when they were best, they had actual RESULTS against ALL oppositions to claim their superiority, unlike Eng who have only half of those results.

    By Blogger worma, at 08:53  

  • OK boss, I will rephrase my comment "In the last 2 years there is very little difference between the Aussies and English Teams. So if on current form England are are better, that makes them a better team" :-)

    And again, I am not comparing this English side with the overall performance of the Aussies for the last 4 years or so (or even one to one in terms of players). I agree they have miles to go (beat india in india, etc) and are some way away from producing guys like Warne, Gichrist, McGrath etc etc) but that's a different discussion...


    Also 'Aussies seem to be down". Wonder if they are really down or are being made to look 'down' by a better side...

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 09:54  

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