But what did HE say?
He(as in He the mighty Flintoff, and not He the Indian Prince :-) said We beat Australia, now we've got to be like Australia.. He is definitely the most dangerous cricketer today, and reading here, he seems to have the perfect attitude going as well. We're not the best country in the world in the rankings. Australia still are, and quite rightly, and They've lost one series, but they have dominated for 10 years. That's got to be our objective now
This one alarms me the most We want to get there and then we want to dominate. I don't think many of us have reached our prime. We are a way from being at the peak. He is right, IMO this Eng team is still playing below their best, and most of their key components are on their way up. Strauss, Pieterson, Flintoff, Harmison can get much better with time(although Harmison has equal chances of going either way). But imagine, Flintoff getting better...becoming a complete test batsman also, capable of the playing a big hand in all possible test situations...this can be even bigger than the current role played by Gilchrist!! He scares me :-(
Meanwhile, Eng is set to declare their winter squad. The usual suspects are doing the round...Tremlett of Anderson as the backup pacer, Batty the spinner. Read or Foster or Prior for G Jones. But its the batting which is more important from Eng point of view, as they need to keep the subcontinent attitude in mind. Robert Key and Owais Shah seem to be in the hunt for that reserve place (Shah has had a wonderful local season, scoring at an avg of 68, if I remember correctly). But no debutants doing the round in Joyce or Cook. And probably rightly so. A subcontinent tour is not the right place to blood a youngster(Clarke, I feel, was a high risk strategy, but then thats how Aus works). And even for young Bell it may be a tough tour, since he hasn't coped well against the relatively easy attack of Aussies also.
But Collingwodd still looks to retain his place. For him, I feel they should define the role as clearly as possible. He should play test matches probably as a genuine batsman(with his bowling called upon as a backup) as the Eng commentators were also noting during the Ashes series.
Update : The squads have been declared. Shaun Udal gets a recall as the backup spinner! Prior for G Jones. Key, Shah missing out. Anderson and Tremlett are in, but I think one of them would miss out on confirmation of Simon Jone. Meanwhile, any more info/thoughts on Udal, Plunkett, Loudon?
This one alarms me the most We want to get there and then we want to dominate. I don't think many of us have reached our prime. We are a way from being at the peak. He is right, IMO this Eng team is still playing below their best, and most of their key components are on their way up. Strauss, Pieterson, Flintoff, Harmison can get much better with time(although Harmison has equal chances of going either way). But imagine, Flintoff getting better...becoming a complete test batsman also, capable of the playing a big hand in all possible test situations...this can be even bigger than the current role played by Gilchrist!! He scares me :-(
Meanwhile, Eng is set to declare their winter squad. The usual suspects are doing the round...Tremlett of Anderson as the backup pacer, Batty the spinner. Read or Foster or Prior for G Jones. But its the batting which is more important from Eng point of view, as they need to keep the subcontinent attitude in mind. Robert Key and Owais Shah seem to be in the hunt for that reserve place (Shah has had a wonderful local season, scoring at an avg of 68, if I remember correctly). But no debutants doing the round in Joyce or Cook. And probably rightly so. A subcontinent tour is not the right place to blood a youngster(Clarke, I feel, was a high risk strategy, but then thats how Aus works). And even for young Bell it may be a tough tour, since he hasn't coped well against the relatively easy attack of Aussies also.
But Collingwodd still looks to retain his place. For him, I feel they should define the role as clearly as possible. He should play test matches probably as a genuine batsman(with his bowling called upon as a backup) as the Eng commentators were also noting during the Ashes series.
Update : The squads have been declared. Shaun Udal gets a recall as the backup spinner! Prior for G Jones. Key, Shah missing out. Anderson and Tremlett are in, but I think one of them would miss out on confirmation of Simon Jone. Meanwhile, any more info/thoughts on Udal, Plunkett, Loudon?
posted by worma at
4:53 AM
39 Comments:
yes miyazaki, I agree. A long way to go for them, and Aus attack did not make them pay enough for their mistakes. Flintoff would really have to mature as their most reliable batsman, if they have to succeed here. Lets see how he handles spin, I also feel that technically he may struggle. But mentally he seems to be getting stronger and stronger, and sometimes that enough to take one through.
By
worma, at 06:05
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
By
worma, at 06:30
ooh...I'll let that one pass ;-)
btw there wasn't any hostility as such, Freddie did his football style shirt take-off act after winning the ODI series here (when they last toured) and SG 'remembered' it as a captain...took his revenge with the Natwest win...and taking off the shirt in return :-) (btw, much later in an interview he jokingly said that many in the team had decided to do that gesture, but most of them chickened out :) )
By
worma, at 06:31
john, have been to thechappellway.com. I guess most of us are aware of it here. We do discuss the game as well, but more often in the context of a particular game or a series, or sometimes a team in general.
If you have time, do check out the archive posts around the Ashes test, we had lengthy discussions on the game, strategies etc.
Currently the discussion does seem to have drifted towards specific players, but thats mainly due to this specific 'situation' on-going with our Indian cricket setup :-) and due to lack of cricketing action all around.
By
worma, at 07:00
yes ravi, I think Ganguly went to Lancashire in the previous stint (although that doesnt exactly mean they were friends, since SG wasn't exactly 'popular' in the dressing room, if some reports are to be believed). But anyways, as I said, this is moot point since there was no 'hostility' to begin with. Just plain competitive, aggressive cricket on the field.
By
worma, at 07:23
Worma, I was a bit dissapointed not to see Owais Shah in the Team. But I understand that he has a bit of an attitude (with his peers) and Duncan Fletcher does not want anyone who will mess up the atmosphere in the English dressing room.
Sad, because I think he is one of the most attractive players in England.
Shaun Udal & Alex Loudon are nothing special, but then Spin has never been england's forte. Haven't seen the others...
By
Saurabh Wahi, at 08:54
Saurabh, Will on his blog was suggesting that Swann might have been good. Udal, it seems, is more like Giles...average spinner, can bat a bit.
Whats the attitude problem with Shah? During the ODIs that he played recently?
And why take Plunkett? I thought they had Anderson, Tremlett, Lewis as their main backup bowlers. And reserve batsman seems to be Collingwood again. Thats a bit surprising, I think they should have opted for a more solid middle order replacement.
By
worma, at 09:17
shri, yes I agree with your analysis. The Eng middle order batting needs some stability...and Vaughan is the alone who can do that, but he's not exactly exuding confidence against non-Aus attack :)...Bell is weak. Thats why, in my post, I said that it would be almost like a 'coming of age' of Flintoff the batsman...this tour. If he can move one step up in his test match batting, and become a more versatile test batsman...that would serve Eng perffectly(now with KP, they already have some explosive power in the middle)...and would also make him much more dangerous.
About lack of bounce, well I think Harmison and Flintoff will till get enough bounce to trouble our batsmen, but would not be able to keep it up for 2-3 sessions in a row. Thats why they need to have good backup...Jones may work well, but Giles can loose it, and Hoggard or Anderson are almost sure to be expensive.
By
worma, at 09:27
Sri, if India & Pakistan do not get their act togther in terms of internal politics etc, this English Team will not have to worry about their own performance to win...
By
Saurabh Wahi, at 09:42
saurabh, Pak already have relative calm in their team room. I dont think politics would play a role in that series(well, at the most we can have an under-performing Akhtar...but he anyway does that:). And regarding Indian unstability, well even this should not affect their performance too much, and especially considering the fact that its 4-5 months away. The key components of the Indian test match team are well in place, minus SRT. If he comes back strongly then I think its again the same old team.
All in all, if Eng win these two series...I think they would have deserved it, and should go a long way in making them the best in the world.
Afterall, whoever questioned the strenght and stability of Indian (or Pak) teams that Aus defeated to climb to the top! Do you remember the last time Aus defeated Pak in the subcontinent? Sharjah and Columbo were the venues(!) and it was probably the weakest Pak team in my memory. Even the Ind team they faced in 2001 hardly had a bowling 'attack' and the one in 2004 was minus SRT. Yet, now we dont consider these facts in confirming the Aussie superiority.
By
worma, at 09:50
shri...you know the dilemma that we Indian supporters face!...If Pak beat Poms..then Pak is on a high (and we visit them in Jan-Feb) and if Pom win that series, then they are on a high before visiting us in March...talk of connundrum for supporters ;-)
By
worma, at 09:53
ravi...LOL :-)...I was going to say about these stories...that be wary..these are written by Shukla (he is the PTI reporter there)....so when he says Ganguly himself was the source of stories that Chappell had asked him to relinquish the captaincy when he told the media after scoring a century in the first Test in Bulawayo then I ask "what stories??"...and immediately filter out everything not in quotes from that report ;)
By
worma, at 09:54
yes ravi, he cannot make up the foto-op part ;-)...but anyways..the quotes are also genuine(whether heartfelt or not). But the point, which only Chappel seems to be (repeatedly)making, is the role of media in all this. We are all being taken for a ride(led by the redoubtable Mr Shukla) and not many are questioning it!
By
worma, at 10:01
Worma, unlike Prem, I don't have my 'sources' in the English dressing room but I hear that Shah is not too popular in the Middlesex dressing room.
I think England's weakness is in their middle order, especially Bell. This means they will have to continue with G.Jones to keep the depth in their batting.
Sri, Vaughan has no technical flaws in his game (with low ball and all). I think the guy is so caught up in the captaincy, that he tends to lose his concentration (I know people tend to compare his form with Ganguly- fact is, when Vaughan is at the crease, he seems to be in total control until he plays that one bad shot, whereas Ganguly looks out of sorts throughout his innings).
Also, this English Team has a goal to be Nr 1 team in the world by 2007 (which is part of the mission statement).
They are aware that they have to win in the sub-continent to get to the top so I don't think they will come under prepared or with over-confidence to the sub-continent.
By
Saurabh Wahi, at 10:12
shri, the info part of Shukla's report is often reliable(though not completely). Its his opinions which are often far-fetched. And since his reports+opinion articles are carried by most papers(he being a PTI source) so most of the 'analysts' use it to form their own opinion...leading to the chinese whisper style distortion of reality. Which is why Chappel had to(once again) question the media accuracy! (Even earlier in the day we read the BCCI quote that the manager's report they have received is much different from the media stories floating around...we know BCCI cannot be fully trusted, but then neither can Shukla).
Notice when Harsha wrote about this issue in his latest express piece did give the doubt factor to this issue...and Shastri hass recently questioned "the context in which GC has said, whatever he has said to SG"..implying that even he wasn't sure what had exactly transpired an in what tone, mood etc.
And Shukla and others have been able to re-create the meetings dialogue-by-dialogue????!
By
worma, at 10:24
shri, I agree with you. The media is right, and so are you. There is a rift between them. That is the big picture...but the smaller details...who said what...and the implication...and who leaked to whom...and why did he say it then...plus innuendos like '1000 miles separate Chappel and Ganguly'...plus language like 'Ganguly's outburst in media'...or 'Ganguly was the source of stories'...etc etc...these are what leads to wrong opinions.
Anyways...much said...lets wait for full reality(which we can get from Prem, not regular media sources;)
But this is not a problem with Indian media alone(the KGB implant kind)..thats regularly been used by US also...home and abroad. Prem had some interesting comments yesterday on general role of a media person..and how to 'look' at a report to see through.
By
worma, at 10:35
worma,
if, as you say, the context in which GC had made those sttaements should have been considered, why did SG make all this public? There is more to it than meets the eye. If it was some trivial suggestion on GC's part, as you seem to believe, then SG should have had no issue with it rather than appear hurt and hard-done by. And also note that GC is the only one who is trying to downplay the incident by blaming the press for blowing it up. There seems to be nothing from the other side. As far as the press is concerned, they did their job. Harsha got SG to comment about this on TV and the rest is history.
And I think Shukla dear is more than compensated by Sahi dear :)
From what Prem suggests, there seems to be lots of stuff going on and none of this started with GC's tenure either. Of course, as someone said above, I wont be surprised if SG, GC, RD, AK, VVS land at Mumbai holding hands and whispering sweet-nothings in each other's ears. This Indian team definitely has talent in acting.
Abt the Poms coming to India: if they have an attitude anything like their recent predecessors, India stands to gain nothing. If the Poms win, they'll say that this is their path to being No1 test team. If they lose, they'll blame the heat, dust, water and the very noisy crowd, giving little credit to the opposition. If they come with the attitude that the Aussies had (and I doubt guys like Harmisson would ever want to set foot in India), then they stand a better chance at being good ambassadors for the game. Its a pity that they are not playing India anytime sooner. The sheen of the Ashes victory could be diminished by then and there might not be as much hype revolving around the India series. Looking forward to Pakistan Vs England.
By the way, does anyone think that Youhana's chances of becoming captain are increased by his change of religion? I do, I think thats the way that country works. Everything is centred around religion. Looking forward to Kaneria changing faiths too...
By
Toney, at 10:46
toney..well I agreed there is a rift between the two. That is the big fact. But there are finer details like whether it was about captaincy or about place in the batting lineup (wouldn't SG be hurt by either of these suggestions)...or whether YUvraj being played was a SG favouritism(or Punjab-north zone politics on Dalmiya's instructions) ? Wether GC wanted to play Kaif? Did he prefer him over Ganguly? Did SG not talk to kaif for first two days of the test? Did he have a media outburst? Did he plant stories in media, or someone leaked something?
Do you have answers to all these..are you sure Shukla and others are right on all these counts? And when you say why isn't there any downplay from SG's side...they are same side as far as this is concerned! Did you hear Ganguly keeping on maintaining the 'story' in multiple interviews, comments after that one interview(and one possible press briefing comment?) That would be called unequal downplaying.
But anyway, I guess the points we are trying to make are well known, and some people here might really be tired of this ;-)...so lets move to other topics....since this, as I said, may 'never' come out :-)
And no I dont think the Poms would come with the same attitude as their previous times. Remember in those times they used to whinge and roll-over to Aussies also....no more. I think we'll see a much better overall approach from them this time...although it may not be comparable with the Aussie approach of 2004
By
worma, at 11:06
Good job by Sambit Bal here...
http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/zimvind/content/story/219626.html
By
Toney, at 11:11
shri..never mind...its the same PTI report about GC-SG patchup as carried by express, cricinfo, rediff.
By
worma, at 11:11
vick,
That is why I said that country will never progress. I wonder why everything that they has to be centred around religion. I thought at least they avoided showing that in cricket. But now, all the messages to the public start with a reference to their religion. And they offer team prayers. When 12 out of a 14 are part of one religion, I am sure Kaneria and Youhana would have felt out of place. I think religion should have a plapce within and there is no need to tell the rest of the world what your faith is. Anyhow, their country, their team, why bother...
By
Toney, at 11:15
cricktip,
very true indeed. Fortunately, the Indian cricket team is not selected on the basis of religion, though the quota system is still on and thats an evil which should be removed too.
vick, LOL abt the Arati part after every match....
By
Toney, at 11:42
one more thing about religion in Indian cricket and sports: The media often does unnecessary things for some reason or the other.
I have seen several sections of the media hailing Mohd Kaif as the representative of Muslims in India. I have no problem with anyone practising any religion in India. I am a Christian, I never ever faced any opposition to my faith. But if someone does something that has nothing to do with religion, why bring it up at all?
I cringe when I read articles such as Kaif is the torch bearer for all Muslims in INdia or Sania Mirza is the new face and idol for all Muslim girls in India. They worked hard, kept their focus and achieved something praiseworthy. Praise them for it, dont give it that extra twist.
Does this mean that all Muslims in INdia support Kaif more than say SRT because he shares their faith? And all Hindus in India should clap when RD scores a century and look away when Mirza upsets a top-ssed in tennis? On those scales, I should be going out on demnstrations because David Johnson is not in the team ROFL
Indian media should focus on the right issues.
By
Toney, at 11:50
cricktip, true once again...
And whats the problem in having 3 left armers if they are the ones in form? And they are not very similar either, right? Pathan swings the ball, ZK bowls with a bit more pace (used to at least), AN is not eithe rone of them too.
By
Toney, at 12:00
sriram, wanna open can of worms? :)
By
Toney, at 12:01
crictip, even now? Nobody disputes the fact that SG was a wondeful motivator of men. I said that yesterday too. But do you honestly think SG will be able to focus and revive his command over the team? I dont think so.
What I was trying to say yesterday also was just this, right?
By
Toney, at 12:04
Sidhant, you make a good point abut the English spinners. The fact is they don't have any spinners in England and James Ormand is definately not one of them; he is just a pace bowler gone fat :-)
The England team is very good at playing to the oppositions weakness as opposed to thier own strenghts (I still think this is an Extraordinary team with Ordinary players)
So instead of hoping for miracles in the next two months, they will be looking at exploiting the weeknesses in the Indian/Pakistani teams.
And recent history proves they are very good at it. Remember, no matter what A Miller Jr thinks, this was the first time the world found out that the Aussies had weaknesses...
By
Saurabh Wahi, at 12:08
Flute good point.
I have always been vary of comments like 'who said what to who' in the media. For me, they add no cricketing value...
But this time around, this whole GC/SG episode is too important to ignore. If the coach & captain do not see eye-to-eye, then there is not hope for the Team.
By
Saurabh Wahi, at 12:17
saurabh,
You mean the Poms were the first to bring out the Aussie problems? not really. I think the first time the world found that the Aussies had weaknesses was when SG managed to get under the skin of Waugh in 2001. And they continue to have that traditional weakness of playing good off spin (and not very good at playing spin in general either).
Their weaknesses against good swing bowling were brought out in the open when ZK had a good spell at Brisbane (got injured soo after that) and the AA had a good day at Adelaide.
The Aussies are still very good at playing on good batting tracks with plenty of bounce. I dare say that Eng will be thumped if they play the same Ausssie team in Aus now. Their batsmen have their share of problems against spin and pace.
By
Toney, at 12:18
did you guys check the new cricinfo surfer. Cool stuff...
http://blogs.cricinfo.com/surfer/archives/2005/09/the_surfer_begi.html
By
Saurabh Wahi, at 12:21
Toney, this is the first time I have heard that the aussies have been carrying weaknesses since 2001!!!!
Fact is, Ganguly did not expose any technical flaws in the Aussie line up. He won because, as you said, of his sheer ability to get under their skin and rally the whole team behind him.
now, where is THAT Ganguly?
By
Saurabh Wahi, at 12:27
And toney, lets not talk about this 'weak' English Team being thumped by the Aussies down under. Not long ago, they were being thumped 5-0 in thier own back yard.
Fact is, as long as this English team can stay fit and maintain their 'Team Spirit', I will back them to beat any team anywhere, no matter what their flaws...
By
Saurabh Wahi, at 12:31
shri, we'll win the test if weather doesnt intervene. I believe thats one surety
By
Toney, at 12:38
Toney, only death is a surety :-)
By
Saurabh Wahi, at 12:42
true, Saurabh. Even in death, we dont know when :)
By
Toney, at 12:44
saurabh, do you know if Eng have any good spin bowling prospects? Reverse swing or not, I do think they have a deficiency there. Giles will take the odd good wicket but a good spinner will make their bowling attack really world class in all conditions
By
Toney, at 12:46
Toney, they have no spinner anywhere in the horizon. Not that I am aware of.
By
Saurabh Wahi, at 13:11
Shri, they have a guy called Dan Cullen. He's in his early 20's and an offbreak bowler.
again, unless you see these guys on the international stage, it's hard to tell...
By
Saurabh Wahi, at 13:19
Nathan bracken is a fast bowler...
I pointed out Dan Cullen cause he is the only young spinner they have.
The others who have been waiting in the wings, have waited too long. Brad Hogg, who I think is a good spinner, is already 34. So is McGill...
The aussies are in for a tough time after Warne/McGrath no doubt...
By
Saurabh Wahi, at 13:26
Post a Comment
<< Home