Sight Screen: Time for 'real' cricket

Tuesday, September 13, 2005

Time for 'real' cricket - Ind-Zim: Open thread

Some news updates : LP Sahi, from his reliable sources, tells us that Yuvraj may get the nod ahead of Kaif. And that Balaji has an leg injury, may not play. Bhajji and Agarkar will fight it out for the place (meaning Kumble, Pathan, Khan are in starting lineup)

Match fixing related news, first reported in TOI (hence received with a pinch of salt) has turned out to be true indeed. Cricinfo and Rediff are the others having picked it up so far.

It mentions that below par performance of India and Nz resting key players in the league game are the main issues. IMO, either our entire last year was fixed, or we performed 'consistent' with our current form. Atleast it was similar to our performances in SL, with a bit of 'more' effort, not less. So, don't know where this is coming from. We'll soon find out.

Anyways.....open thread for the rest of the day...

179 Comments:

k-slice...yeah I also hope so. But atleast my own gut feel is that this Indian team is not swimming in these murky waters. They may play bad cricket at times, but I don't feel they have such 'dealings'.

By worma, at 02:35
k-slice..dunnot about the SRT case details...did read abt it when it came out, but he said its a photo with a fan etc. Anyways, my personal opinion about SRT has always been that of his non-involvment. Remember...such intentional behaviour 'shows' on the screen...it never comes as a big surprise. The 'way' Azhar and Jadeja used to repeatedly get out in games...didn't we wll feel frustrated..didn't we feel how stupid of them to do it...etc etc. I personally never got that feeling with SRT, even when he played bad.

And btw, about the whole bar girl thing, if I remember correctly, mid day was the first one to report it, and they also mentioned, in the same report, that the police said that from their info...there was money involved, girl involved...but the player(s) who met her and advised her to bet on SL loosing the game...they finally did not keep their promise...SL won the game(and she lost her customers money)? Right? Now, this can be a case of the players not being able to influence the game enough to make SL loose. Or it can also be a simple case betting, gambling...but no match fixing. And I personally don't give a damn about any cricketers 'social' life, as long they play the game right.

I think the media should also make a strict distinction between betting/gambling and match-fixing. These are two very different issues, and I think our media, mostly deliberately, tends to mix them..for the obvious reason that the word match-fixing gets them more readership.

By worma, at 03:05
k-slice..you seem to have some interesting stories! What's this one about Kapil betting in golf? Can you tell us something more? And how did your friend get to know this Azhar case? Was it that common knowledge during those times..even before the match?

Yes I agree that there might have been other players also involved who got away scott free (but thats what happens in all such cases in soceity, there are a few high-profile scapegoats, setting example and fear in the community, for others to mend ways). Also, there is(and always was) a bias in the ICC against the subcontinent. Cronje got implicated only because the Indian administrators got proof against him, and since it was a legal issue, it couldn't be suppressed.

But I dont agree that if the players mention about throwing a match to a bar-girl, they should be called 'match fixers'! We dont know in what context, and for what reasons they may be doing this. Let that also be part of the non-cricketing social life we dont want to touch. Ofcourse there can be checks and balances built in players contracts to make them behave a bit more responsibly in their social life also, making them aware that these are paranoid times. You dont mention match-fixing in public...like you dont mention 'bomb' on an airplane ;-)

By worma, at 03:32
bedoon_esam: thanks for sharing that insight about SRT...just goes to strenghten my conviction(if that was possible) about SRT's integrity. But anyways..as I said..I have seen his game, more closely than any other cricketers...and even have felt disappointed with it at times...but never felt any part of it being 'inexplicable' or questionable in terms of commitment

By worma, at 03:36
Taibu has won the toss and elected to bat first

By worma, at 03:41
vshan, that was my first reaction too LOL :)...but seriously, as sunki said, hardly anything concrete there. I wont be surprised if this whole thing fizzles out.

and where on rediff did u read about Zaheer? This story on rediff also mentions Balaji's injury

By worma, at 03:55
Good morning, guys..

I think it would make sense to play Kaif. He showed great form in Zimbabwe and didnt do all that bad against Aus last year.

By Raju, at 03:56
jai u watching? bhajji or agarkar?

By worma, at 03:56
k-slice..umm...nice juicy bits those..thanks ;)

By worma, at 03:58
2 spinners... and Yuvi is in..

By Raju, at 04:00
surprised with selection of two spinners.. are both Nehra and Balaji injured??

By Raju, at 04:01
well...this is Bulawayo..not as helpful for bowling I think? And ain't gonna turn on day 1. Dunno how are the conditions though, am not watching.
But still, if Pathan is fit, I feel they should not get more than 200-250

By worma, at 04:02
avinash, in Bulawayo I think its a good choice to play two spinners..aint much help for swing(that means Agarkar's not going to work).

By worma, at 04:03
Didnt see the pitch report, but not green at all.. that probably would have tempted SG to go in with 2 spinners. Sunny dry and windless day.. if at all the pitch will do something, it has to be for the first 30-40 mins..

By Raju, at 04:05
ZK starts with a new ball.. *SIGH*.. Old habits never die...

By Raju, at 04:07
avinash...if McG can get injured on the morning of a game by stepping on the ball...then whats wrong with Balaji getting injured...IMO no complaints as long as he did not carry the injury from here..its a physical sport...these things happen

By worma, at 04:21
Yuvraj Singh's recent test career:

14/10/2004 Aus Chennai 8 7*
06/10/2004 Aus Bangalore 5 27
13/04/2004 Pak Rawalpindi 47 DNB
05/04/2004 Pak Lahore 112 12
28/03/2004 Pak Multan 59 DNB

Mohammad Kaif's recent Test career:
03/11/2004 Aus Mumbai 2 25
26/10/2004 Aus Nagpur 55 7
14/10/2004 Aus Chennai 64 DNB

Hmmm, MK plays the more recent Test's and does better against the (then) #1 team in the world. Also, he has struck a rich vein of form and is a better Test prospect (technique-wise), but still is left out for YS. Can someone enlighten me on this one?

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 04:26
And just to stir things up :-) (sorry, worma, no malice intended!)

Here is another set of numbers:
24/03/2005 Pak Bangalore 1 2
16/03/2005 Pak Kolkata 12 12
08/03/2005 Pak Mohali 21 DNB
17/12/2004 Ban Chittagong 88 DNB
10/12/2004 Ban Dhaka 71 DNB
28/11/2004 SA Kolkata 40 DNB
20/11/2004 SA Kanpur 57 DNB
14/10/2004 Aus Chennai 9 DNB
06/10/2004 Aus Bangalore 45 5
13/04/2004 Pak Rawalpindi 77 DNB
02/01/2004 Aus Sydney 16 DNB

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 04:31
jaunty ..I think one reason is that when Yuv was made to open, he was clearly told my team management that it wont count against his midddle order prospect (so that we dont end up with a VVS like case). I remember reading this from Ganguly/team-management at that time. So remove his opener innings and you see he is equally good(if not better) than kaif at that position. Also, he was the one given first chance, so he has the first claim on it.

It was already injustice to him in the Aus series that when he 'supposedly' failed in the Chennai test, and in the next game they decided to get a regular opener, the middle order slot went to kaif...despite yuv being a success at that place....but still that was understandable to some extent, given Kaif's form...and that he had played aussie well at that time

By worma, at 04:32
jaunty..those numbers do not look bad at all...except for the bad Pak home series...sure they are not 'top class'...but still...

whose are they ? ;-)

By worma, at 04:34
Harsha just mentioned that he watched Zaheer bowl in the nets yesterday, and ALL his deliveries were no-balls.

Maddening, just maddening. You'd think a new coach would have straightened something as simple out.

As Big Aristotle once paraphrase, "You are what you repeatedly do".

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 04:35
worma,
Okay, I'll buy that reasoning for YS over MK. I had forgotten that YS was the "scapegoat" opener even in the Aussie series when SC came back but they could not afford to drop a guy who had just scored a century in the previous series against Pakistan. Cool.

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 04:38
ananth, not watching mate. But cricinfo does seem to suggest he's not getting the line correct. those watching here can elaborate more...

By worma, at 04:38
IP FINALLY gets a ball in the right spot. That was the Irfan of yesteryears (sad to be saying that about a boy barely in his 20's)

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 04:39
Oh...I am watching. Okay, here goes.

Irfan is routinely swinging the ball (inswinger for a right-hander). However, the ball is shorter in length (i.e. climbs over the stumps when it passes) and therefore the batsmen are able to watch it away.

Even as I type this, Sunny makes the same comment!!

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 04:41
jaunty..thanks for buying the argument ;)..but he didn't open because Ganguly came back. He opened because team management decided to do away with Chopra, and wanted a more positive opener. Ganguly was safe and secure in the test squad at this time. There was not even a slight hint of doubt over his position. Then, the team management asked Yuv to open, with the afore-mentioned promise...and he agreed.

btw, I dont think Yuv has failed as an opener...he 'may' fail...but I feel its wrong when people say he's failed (Prem is one of them:) )

By worma, at 04:41
worma, YS originally came in because he had just scored a century, SC was coming into the team, and they did not want to drop him. AC's repeated failures to do more than see the shine off the ball provided the perfect opportunity to drop him and instate YS in the spot. Then when the Aussies toured they just continued with the same lineup but after Tendulkar and then things begin to get murky with people coming in (SRT, MK) and people leaving (YS).

Taylor gone!

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 04:45
avinash...I don't know what is the problem with LB, and I couldnt make it out from our media reports (and he didn't 'say' anything, its what the media 'said'). I blame our media for not asking the right questions, and not reporting it in a clear manner, as compared to the Eng/Aus media about the McGrath thing. You may be right, he may be carrying an injury, all I say is lets be clear on it first.

And I dont think this issue has got anything to do with how great or old a bowler is.

By worma, at 04:45
Nice sharp catch at short-leg by GG.

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 04:45
worma, I second that opinion about LB and injuries.

Paraphrasing Sherlock Holmes, "It is unwise to formulate theories without obtaining all the facts"

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 04:47
jaunty...the whole thing is..during this YS, AC and the opener affair..there was no question being raised about SG's place in the team. And no-one was suggesting, except SG himself, that it would be wrong to bench a guy who's just scored a century. SG may be batting pathetically right now, but please remember what he did and didn't say/do, and also where credit is due.

By worma, at 04:49
Zaheer is all over the place (a la Shabbir Ahmed) but when he gets it in the spot the batsmen have been a little lost.

IP has been more predictable with his swing. BTW, whatever happened to the ball that goes straight through across the right-hander?

I like his new haircut, though!

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 04:50
worma, my whole point was not to stir up an SC debate. Far from it; I was only interested in the YS-MK angle. (The scores for SC was entirely in jest!). In Pakistan, SC deserved to come back in the side at the expense of YS and it should have been left at that. There was no need to replace AC with a non-opener, thats all.

I personally have never been a fan of makeshift openers (Though Hayden, Langer and Sehwag have made a career out of it).

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 04:54
Avinash, even as you say it, HM hits a lovely off-drive.

(BTW, apart from Kapil Dev I cannot recall a single batsman who did not appear to be a nervous starter! :-)

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 04:57
And another one - this time a flick-drive to midwicket by HM.

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 04:57
Oooooh..IP nearly yorks HM! Beauty. IP is beginning to pitch it up now. Good.

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:00
Am I talking to myself? Hmmmm.

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:00
Beautiful cover drive by HM. Avinash, this is ominous!!

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:01
HM was the youngest batsman ever to score a century on his Test debut, at 17 years and 254 days. (since surpassed by Ashraful). And then he took a 3 year break to puruse his education. Smart move.

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:03
India over rate: 13 overs per hour. If SG gets into trouble, he should order the DVD of the Ashes and play it to the adjucator and ask for a level playing field when it comes to fines and punishments.

(Not that ANYTHING of the sor thas happened. Just fancifully looking ahead).

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:05
Overseas Test match cricket is back on all India Radio.At least AIR has been able to understand our strength.and by the way Five live was at the oval,as was the TMS.

By Nearly Man, at 05:08
Avinash, oh, I know. I'm not worried on that front. Unlike Shane Warne, our spinners do not need 400 years per over.

HM gone...pulled out of a pull shot (pun intended) and gloves it through to the keeper. ZK makes merry!

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:10
Good morning (very early morning) sujata.

harsha, I wonder whether the repeated injuries have caused them to slow down (not that it appears to have helped with the side straisn or the groin pulls).

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:12
Due to an inability to subtract properly from GMT I assumed the game was starting at 2am and have been up since then. Feeling sleepy now!! :-)

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:15
This Indian attack has two of india's best all time bowlers.Both Kumble and Harbhajan have more than four wickets per test.

By Nearly Man, at 05:17
Aleem Dar is a notoriuos not-outer (ask Shane Warne) and he shows it here again.

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:17
worma / jaunty:

This is an extract from Rediff:

Parthiv likely to open

Faisal Shariff in Rawalpindi | April 13, 2004 12:09 IST
Last Updated: April 13, 2004 17:06 IST

Parthiv Patel is all set to open India's first innings in the third Test against Pakistan at Rawalpindi.

According to a source, India skipper Sourav Ganguly wanted Rahul Dravid to open with Virender Sehwag but then decided to ask Patel. If Patel fails he will ask Yuvraj Singh to open in the second innings.

At a press conference on Monday morning Ganguly said either Yuvraj or he would open the innings. He announced the exclusion of Akash Chopra from the playing eleven and said he would still continue to be in the scheme of things for India's Test team.

The decision to fall back on Parthiv is to ensure that India bats deep.

And this one from Match Report of 1st day of 3rd Test:

Morning session

India made two changes from the side that lost the second Test, dropping opener Akash Chopra to accommodate Sourav Ganguly, who missed the first two Tests due to a back injury, sustained in last month's fifth One-Day International,

These 2 extracts clearly show that the only reason to drop Akash Chopra was to bring back Ganguly in the team. SG was not looking for a better opener. As he himself said that he thought of himself, RD and Parthiv as possible openers but the sent YS to open.

The reason given for dropping AC was that how can we keep YS out of team when he scored a 100. What brings suspicion to mind is that why was YS asked to open?? I could not find any article in Rediff archive that said that YS was promised that his position in team would be safe irrespective of how he performed as an opener. So I don't believe that SG wanted to replace AC with a more positive opener. You don't change openers while a test series is in progress. You do that before or after the series. The only reason I can think, of sending YS to open, is that middle order was getting crowded because of YS scoring a 100.

By Unknown, at 05:18
Well, looks like the elbow is not that big a concern - Ganguly is bowling. And immediately the statuesque Duffin tries to force a ball on the off-side. Ah, a drop from the express pace of IP to the trundling SG has really boosted Duffin's confidence! :-)

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:21
ruchir, thanks. But in the end it is all moot. Speculating about people's intentions 2 years after the event will only stir a hornets nest. No matter what we think - the selectors and the think tank operate on their own accord. All we can do is sit here and pluck the few remaining hairs from our heads!

Ganguly bowled a good over. Nice line and length. Too bad he lacks the speed to worry them.

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:23
true, jaunty.

By Unknown, at 05:25
sujata, what got me was the "army" time. When I checked on cricinfo last night the GMT time was 20:00. I subtracted incorrectly and made an adjustment for 8:00 am GMT and .....

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:26
what the f**k did SG do? He casually watched the ball go past him for 4 at mid on without even moving!!!

By Unknown, at 05:26
Bounce for Kumble! Oooh...I suspect it is a matter of time before he adds to his tally.

harsha, no kidding! Every ball by SG was in the mid-just outside off stump corridor.

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:27
ruchir, do you think he had a flashback to the ODI in Pakistan where he injured himself while going for a similar ball? Still does not excuse the act, though.

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:29
I really suggest that GC start implementing fines or punishments over aviodable misfieldings in the field. Best would be to drop a player for a match after 2-3 warnings and making it public that he has been dropped as a punishment for repeated failures in field.

Our cricketer dread public humiliation.

As I was typing, Zaheer lets ball go thru his legs for 4 at boundary off Bhajji. Another example of why we need draconian punishments to improve our fielding standards.....

By Unknown, at 05:30
This is sad...Zaheer misfields..what is he doing on the field anyway? Shouldn't he be taking a "bathroom break" while Kaif is on the field, a la Harmison? :-)

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:30
I predict that Kumble will get Duffin, whenever he bowls to him.

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:31
jaunty:

There can be 2 reasons for Ganguly to do that (mis)field.

1. He is plain lazy and does not want to move.

2. He knows that he maay be playing his last series so he does not care what he does. He is going to retire anyway.

By Unknown, at 05:32
ok..me back..and looks like we pulled out the spin rabbit as quick as Ponting :) Is that the order for rest of the day??..

By worma, at 05:35
ruchir, lol.

More seriously, looking at the Indians, they seem to be in the frame of mind that it is a matter of time before Zimbabwe pads their stats. The energy level seems quite low.

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:35
worma, the 2 "fast" bowlers have had their spell. SG had no option but to bring on his other two bowlers - they happened to be spinners.

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:37
Zaheer, Nehra, Ganguly, Kumble are known bad fielders. VVS and Sehwag drop catches regularly. Dhoni is indifferent behind wkts. Of late, RD has also gone down in fielding standards.

I wonder, what exactly is being done to improve these guys? They are the same that they were 2 years ago. Why are they not getting an ultimatum that unless they improve their fielding, their selection will remain suspect.

By Unknown, at 05:37
Though at the rate at which IP and ZK are losing pace, soon Kumble may be India's soliary pace bowler.

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:38
ruchir, thats just it - do you think they FEAR that ultimatum, if they know it is not likely to be enforced?

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:38
yeah but what about Ganguly....I thought he bowled pretty tight?

By worma, at 05:39
ruchir VVS is a very very good slip fielder

By worma, at 05:39
Mohd Rafiq takes a five-for against SL...this guy is good!

By worma, at 05:40
k-slice...peace...non-violence..no guns blazing ;)

By worma, at 05:41
worma:

I remember VVS dropping 4 catches in slips in one test against either AUS or PAK. My point is that fielding of these guys is going down slowly but surely.

By Unknown, at 05:41
worma, SG's speed was no threat at all. Duffin started moving his feet and forcefully pushing the ball around (though not for runs). And since he was not getting too much swing, he went straightaway to his spinners.

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:42
sujata...any updates on that investigation? Any specific matches of India in mind for them? I mean, we just lost 2 games to Nz, and both for obvious reasons...didnt look like fixing?

By worma, at 05:43
jaunty:

When I say use ultimatum, I of course mean to implement it too. :-)

Without the fear of punishment being implemented, our fielding will only get worse...

By Unknown, at 05:43
ruchir..ok agreed he may have had a bad game..(although dont seem to rem watching, but then I missed a few of those games). But I dont think his general level of slip catching has gone down. he has teh natural technique...not sure if that would 'go'

By worma, at 05:45
k-slice..my 'denial' was based on reasoning...based on what we saw on the screen...but I'm open to suggestions, with reasons, of wrong-doings :)

By worma, at 05:46
yes avinash, in ODIs you cant hide behind slip catching

By worma, at 05:48
Before we get a bit too far with this train of thought:

My impression was that there was a suggestion of impropriety about the ODI matches in Zimbabwe because there was a lot of betting going on which, unless I am mistaken and things have changed in the 12 years I have been gone, is illegal in India. In England where betting on the game is legal, (betfair even sponsored the coverage on the net, I believe, and cricinfo endorses them), the stigma of "match-fixing" is not rearing its head.

What I am trying to say in a convoluted way is this: Betting on a game (illegally) and match fixing are two different beasts. I wonder if the media is confusing the two issues here...just curious since all the information I have is 4th or 5th hand, anyway!!

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:48
jaunty, exactly my thoughts on this affair, right at the beginning of this thread

By worma, at 05:49
worma, I know, I was just reitrating it..:-)

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:51
Why does Harbhajan not like to bowl round the wicket to a leftie?

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:52
sujata, exactly...I dont believe anyone in this team would throw a game(yours might be based on more insight). And even the close matches which went the other way, we could 'see' the reasons on the screen. And if these guys were acting, then I do think some of them deserve a national award(well...atleast more than Saif anyway;)

By worma, at 05:54
5 minutes to lunch...*yawn* Time to sleep and hope that while I sleep the bowlers awaken.

sujata, yes it appears that the Augean stables need to be cleaned again.

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:58
sujata, but overhaul in the administrative terms..right? because atleast the players, in their playing intentions, seem to be on the right track.

And about that player review..did you read Rajaraman article from outlook? If that is true, then this review was a regular formality planned long in advance, isnt it? And maybe Mahendra got some heat from higher up on speaking out too much ? Maybe even GC wouldn't have been happy that his report to Mahendra(I assume confidential) was mentioned...

By worma, at 05:59
sujata, then that raises the point. If NZ players are the ones implicated (as one of the previous posts suggests) what are the corruption cops doing in Delhi?

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 05:59
sujata, I left India in '93, and since cricket on the Internet was not where it is today I missed the whole match fixing fiasco. By the time I got back in full touch (visual and audio) the current team was in place. I still carry an autograph of Azhar's in my wallet and remember him being so humble and respectful about giving the autograph that I still hope against hope that the allegations are false, since he seemed beyond reproach. :-(

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 06:03
sujata, agreed...its foolish to just ignore the whole thing. But I still like to think that these are compartively better times. Unlike Azhar's days when all activity, including what the captain thought and planned and did, was behind the scenes. Where we only got, by way of explanation, 'boys played well' and 'boys played badly'. We were left guessing their intentions in ALL their actions, even the good ones. Here atleast the entire team openly speaks out on what they did, when and why.

And then to think GC came all this way for this...seems a bit unlikely. And I wudn't think such things are possible without the coach's awareness (if not compliance).

By worma, at 06:05
Yeah.. Azhar and his acting skills.. - special lessons from Bijlani I guess (she wasn't getting much work on her own)...
BTW, Dinesh Karthik seems to be trying really hard to do better than what Dhoni did in the one-dayers - for starters, he has stopped getting hair-cuts.

By Pavan, at 06:05
No Sujata, I dont think the BCCI will clean up its act....even after considerable push. But atleast the players seem to be playing a straight game. Small mercies...

By worma, at 06:06
sujata LOL :)...I think we can live with that. Its a world-wide phenomenon in their breed.

By worma, at 06:12
ya guys watching the English players on the open top bus? Am suddenly getting the feed for that from nowhere.. Pretty good images.. Everyone getting on board along with their families. The women cricketers who won the Ashes are also on board. Kevin P walked in without a partner, but a huge beer pitcher in hand..

By Pavan, at 06:14
avinash, lets wait and watch how this game goes. Weak sides like Zim, Bdesh etc have the habit of toppling in bulk...so a 66/2 can potentially be 110/6 or some such, in quick time.

By worma, at 06:31
k-slice.. am watching the Ind-Zim match on sportingstreams.. They showed the open-top bus this during the lunch break..

By Pavan, at 06:48
My prediction ::

Zimbabwe 285 all out,
India 180/6 ...karthik and laxman to save India from then on...

Remember... u heard it first here... :)

By Kansultant, at 07:03
Is there a reason why Ganguly does not like to bowl Bhajji and Kumble together?

By Unknown, at 07:05
I think we should ask LP Sahi

By Toney, at 07:07
toney:

ha ha ha...

By Unknown, at 07:09
ruchir, he brought them together in the first spell...through to lunch. Do you want them to bowl in tandem all the time? And the pacers in tandem, by default, then?

By worma, at 07:10
I think SG shud be bowling Viru now... Anywayz he is in better bowling form than Bhajji...

By Kansultant, at 07:13
rajesh, we are not world num3 in bowling. Thats test match ranking. And you devise your own formula, I'm sure it will still come out as number three. Ofcourse you can't judge one team (or individual's) best performance against anothers worst performance, just because they happened in the same time!

And more-over...what we discussed, I clearly remember, was on the Indian team which finished the last test season. If they turn out to be pathetic this season, they will fall down in rankings, dont worry.

As far as need for 'fast bowler' goes....Zimbabwe made 200+ in BOTH their innings in their recent test against Nz here. And they had Bond...in form too.

By worma, at 07:21
..ooh...was that a missed stumping by karthik?

By worma, at 07:26
"Duffin" scores a half century on debut

By Kansultant, at 07:27
it is warne's 36th B'day today.. day after losing the ashes.. not exactly how he would have wanted to celebrate it..

By Pavan, at 07:30
"For me it was a nice touch for them to say 'we wish you were English'" - Shane Warne (saluting the crowd) yesterday after the game.
If he were English, he would have been celebrating his Birthday drinking (with his mate KP - just watched KP get on to the bus with a pitcher full of beer in hand) on an open top bus. Well, if he were English, England would have been celebrating the whole of the past decade.

By Pavan, at 07:34
..vishnupavan...if he were english he could have been frustrated by their failures over the past decade, tired of carrying them around...and given up ;-))...I was just thinking yesterday, that Warne, this series, got a taste of what it means to be a Lara or a Tendulkar...to 'stand tall amongst ruins'..as those two have done in past years!

amit, frankly, I dont think Ind test team has 'improved' over the past season...maybe come down a bit...but they're still pretty good. Kumble had a good last season, even bhajji a decent one. And forget the kumble who came here last time around...he was then pretty ordinary outside the subcontinent. He's improved a lot since then, not great, but effective.

And lets stop keeping Shane Warne in our mind each time we talk of spin bowling ;-)

By worma, at 07:40
rajesh..dunno abt that..but atleast Zaheer seems to have lost the plot...constantly bowling down the leg side (even in the spell before he was replaced by Pathan)

By worma, at 08:06
yule:

Because Ganguly does not like Kumble....

By Unknown, at 08:19
gangs seems intent to prove his critics wrong...why did he select anil if he wasn't gonna use him.

By Jerry Kalarickal, at 08:20
Yule.. Kumble scored a half century in the practice game and Ganguly thinks that was way out of line...

By Pavan, at 08:21
zaheer is out of breath after 3 overs...he is obviously eager to retain his fitness.

By Jerry Kalarickal, at 08:22
raghu, r u implying that gangs is a batsman. he is specialist captain only. :)

By Jerry Kalarickal, at 08:30
raghu:

Batsmen like VVS and SG desperately need batting practice. We could have rested RD but he was in awful form in ODI series so maybe that's why they played him. VS need some practice too. GG is playing tests only so no need to rest him. We could have rested Yuvraj and played an extra bowler but then YS is SG's blue eyed boy, soooo....

By Unknown, at 08:33
Here is the prime example of why most of the times we find a test match drifting away from us.

When Kumble and Bhajji were bowling together in their first spell, they put tremendous pressure on batsmen. Lots of play and miss. But after lunch, for some reason, Ganguly did not bring them together. It was bhajji with a pacer and now, Kumble with Sehwag.

I can't understand why Ganguly does not give both of them one or two long spells together. Batsmen are bound to make mistake against them.

By Unknown, at 08:40
didn't new zealand bowl out zimbabwe for around 200 in all the matches. i mean, man for man, new zealand doesn't seem to be a better bowling side than india - other than bond. so what is missing?

By Jerry Kalarickal, at 08:41
..and yet, somehow, it was bhajji with pacer that got us two wkts in 3 ovrs!

By worma, at 08:41
jaiho:

What I am saying is that in this test match, YS would have been the only batsman who could have been rested in favor of a bowler. But we did not do that. Why? The only reason I can think of is that Ganguly wanted to keep him in.

I don't know if SG can have a team without YS or not. Tomorrow, if selectors don't select YS at all then Ganguly will have to play without him, wouldn't he?

By Unknown, at 08:44
avinash, I am waiting for India to win, collapse or not. Lets just wait and hope for that. Not all teams play same kind of cricket.

By worma, at 08:51
worma:

If combination of spin and pace will get us wkts then how come Zaheer got 2 with Pathan?

I don't know whether you are watching the match live or not but I watched it till lunch and those 12 overs from Kumble and Bhajji were terrifying for ZIM batsmen. 4 out of 6 balls in every over were beating them, missing edges. Both Kumble and Bhajji are getting spin from wkt. It is my belief that they will be more effective bowling together than separately.

By Unknown, at 08:52
ravi, thats a very noble approach - not to kick someone when they are down. but does this imply that we should only criticize those who are in top form; as for those who refuse to get up after getting umpteen chances, we should just let them be! seems like you have found the secret of indian cricket philosophy - they play superbly against top teams (australia, pakistan) and then the same team, makes a mountain out of playing west indies and zimbabwe, refusing to kick them when they are down.

By Jerry Kalarickal, at 08:53
ruchir, am not watching it, so no comments on that. What you said was why not bhajji and kumble together...well they were tried..and then, with no results, something else was tried..which gave results. Same way, bhajji was bowling well..still replaced...because he wasnt able to get the breakthrough. These micro-management things cannot be judged from here...you have to leave it for captains instincts...
..and I did not say spin+pace will get wkts...you said kumble+bhajji will get results. Moreover, that 2 wkts from khan was with the new ball. If you want to compare that with mid-innings strategy..then what can i say..

..btw I also believe that bhajji and kumble bowling in tandem are the best attacking combination that India can have in the middle of the innings. But that doesn't mean you have to persist with them ALL the time? Then do you have the pacers just try for breakthroughs with new ball ? No, right?...and pathan proved that he can be handful with the old ball also..didnt he?

By worma, at 08:57
worma:

This 5th wkt partneship has been going on for about 20 overs now, right? And during this time Bhajji has bowled with Pathan and Khan and Kumble has bowled with Sehwag without any success.

My point is (and was before too) that when does a captain realize what his "good" combinations of bowlers are? When the match is drifting away, should the captain not revert back to his best bowling combination and give them a spell of 15-20 overs to work something out?

I don't remember saying Kumble + Bhajji will get results. I said against them batsmen will make "mistakes". Of course dropped catches etc. can still ruin their figures.

I don't think combination of Kumble and Sehwag is going to get us anywhere. At the most, ZIM will bat out overs and make unneccessary runs. 56 runs in 20 overs for 5th wkt. I have been reading commentary on Cricinfo. In last 10 overs, not once have I read that Sehwag beat any of the batsmen or that they are under any pressure.

Don't you think it is time for Ganguly to span out of his coma and change this bowling combination?

And as I was typing Bhajji comes back...

By Unknown, at 09:16
yeah ruchir, bhajji back:) But 2 questions...first why do you think ganguly would prefer to bowl kumble and sehwag in tandem but not kumble and bhajji? When clearly he is comfortable with bhajji bowling a long spell(as he did earlier) so there must be some reason as to why persisting with sehwag for a while, dont you think? and anyway, sehwag bowled 5 overs only...I dont think that was over-persistence? even in case of pacers...I dont think he persisted blindly with any of them once they started becoming less effective ? Or do you think that was the case?

By worma, at 09:21
damn...

Kumble and dravid are going to make me look bad...

By Unknown, at 09:23
cricinfo says hard chance...how tough was that?..those watching??

By worma, at 09:25
LOL :) dravid takes the catch off kumble...obviously he favours kumble to bhajji ;-)

By worma, at 09:28
worma:

Firstly, Kumble/Bhajji combination worked, which is good for us.

Secondly, my issue was with the 5th wkt partnership growing in runs and overs consumed. Ganguly was trying everything but bringing Kumble and Bhajji together. And as soon as that happened as wkt fell.

By Unknown, at 09:32
amit, yeah we shouldn talk of Warne and any other spinner in same breath, agreed.

Ruchir, sure I also think this is the best combo....was just trying to say that it doesnt mean we keep them going(and remember overusing them on day1 of the series...without results...can be bad in long term). Anyways, maybe your suggestion was the best...its just that its not simple math for the captain all the time.

amit, dont go by how we play spin in ODIs...we cant seem to play much of anything in ODIs (spin, pace, swing, seam, slow...etc). Lets see how we do against SL in the home test series.

By worma, at 09:37
avinash, great call on kumble taking coventry :)

By worma, at 09:38
Ravi:

I would rather consider this ZIM tour as the final series for Ganguly. We have given him enough chances.

It is very difficult to define "good form". Everyone has their own criteria of finding a player in good form.

By Unknown, at 10:10
Prem...but dont you think there's enough for Pathan to learn in bowling alone....he's pretty young...leave batting developement for a some time later...

By worma, at 10:14
hmm...maybe there is this point about thinking like a batsman...yes. I just hope he focus atleast 90% of his energy on developing his bowling....there much bigger promise, and yet a lot of hard work to be done in that

By worma, at 10:18
yes avinash...sure if he has enough to take both, why not. Just make him aware that there's a long long way for him to go in his bowling as well

By worma, at 10:20
ravi, I think Vettori is pretty good as well?

By worma, at 10:23
Prem, yeah if he can manage that, he would be the linchpin in our ODI setup...

any idea why is there no zoom in and hawkeye and all that gizmo for this series?

By worma, at 10:27
tiger in fact after watching the ashes coverage, I'm ashamed of how poor quality we put up with. I remember even the Ind tour of Aus was poor quality....I wonder what is the reason? Indian production companies ?? Prem any idea?

By worma, at 10:31
But Prem...Ind tour down under was almost equally poor??

By worma, at 10:32
Once again, Kaif has to sit out. What has Yuvraj done to deserve a place in the XI ahead of Kaif?

By RPM, at 10:36
Prem ROFL :))...on the other hand, I think Mandira's inclusion was appreciated by a bigger population than hawkeye ;-)

tiger, no I am very sure noting this to myself that the Ind tour down under was poor as compared to other images that I saw from Aus series(other teams).

By worma, at 10:37
tiger he was bowling good pace in this spell....130+ consistently....although he has strained himself in the process it seems :)

By worma, at 10:39
well, no way of confirming that now, tiger :-)

By worma, at 10:40
Prem...I've been saying this for some time now, I think Indian cricket would do well even if BCCI is sensible in making the maximum money out of cricket. Consider Hawkeye....ask company x to sponsor the visual when showing the hawkeye replay....or just name it Colgate Hawkeye or something....and lo...you not only recover the tech cost..you make profit on it!!!

By worma, at 10:43
31 runs in about 6 overs for 8th wkt. Khan and Kumble giving liberal dose of wides and no-balls.

By Unknown, at 10:44
not even 'good' bania mentality Prem...they can look to recover the initial investment sometimes even before making the investment.

By worma, at 10:45
LOL Prem...yeah...woh toh chahiye :))

By worma, at 10:50
what a nonsense end to the days play. Pathan can't even finish the last over without no-balls.

By Unknown, at 10:54
Prem, I DID wake up in the morning to watch the team play. I have realized that the "think tank" is working on a plan that looked good in the confines of the dressing room, and are stuck in that rut. I thought a change in coach would change that, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

We can sit here and rave and rant, but in the end we "haven't played a Test match" so how can we really strategize and understand what is going on? :-)

By Jaunty Quicksand, at 10:59
vick...BCCI will give it to the highest bidder. Atleast thats what they have been doing so far (and the quality of coverage has been poorer than c9 etc for as long as I remember atleast, not just last year). They have made a second attempt to include the 'experience' clause...but that hardly helps...most of those with experience will also cut corners, as Prem said, to max out their profits...and since BCCI does not mention anything else in the clause it wont matter. In other countries the broadcasters are trying to woo in more viewers...so they do a good job...here in India all the junta is anyway watching...why improve quality!!!...otherwise how come DD gets away with showing 4 ball overs??

By worma, at 11:13
Brilliantly trashy performance by our bowlers....

ZIM batsmen opened cans of whoop-ass on us....

Our bowlers shined so blindingly that they lost their way in the bright light....

Most winning Captain corageously (and cunningly) bowled 3 extra overs to drive the over rate point(but gave away 12 valuable runs in them)....

Such is the stranglehold of our bowlers over ZIM batsmen that 8th wkt has scored 55 runs in 12 overs at near 5 runs per over....

Our bowlers showed a lot of generosity and kindheartedness to the poor batsmen of the ravaged country. The extras 29, stand as the 4th highest score of the innings....

The hard work and athleticism of our fielders was at full display today with balls going between the legs, tiredness visible in running behind the ball and general lack of energy on field....

New coach would be happily tearing his hairs out (whatever are remaining) and would be glad to see the gross incompetence of the players on the field....

Did I leave anything out?

By Unknown, at 11:29
Oh yes... here are a couple more...

Captain, in his astute foresight and wisdom, continued to bowl very tired Kumble after the last drinks break inspite of knowing that he had bowled 13 consicutive overs before that. Kumble gave away 29 runs in the last session....

Captain displayed his grasp abilities of his players and made excellent field placing dicisions. Zaheer (most tired fielder) was placed at deep 3rd man, and gave away many boudaries and 3s in the last 10 overs. Ganguly himself was placed at long on and was unable to run after the ball. Ideally, quicker fielders are placed at boundary to stop 4s and 3s....

By Unknown, at 11:45
jai:

Do you realize how tired Zaheer was in the field? This guy was having trouble bending and picking up the ball. Kumble bowled 20 overs continuously till the end. He is 35 years old not an 18 year old STUD. Did you see hom many boundaries he gave aways in the final 10 overs?

Did you read cricinfo commentary of last 10 overs? Kumble was able to beat the bat only twice between over # 80 and 93!!! What does that tell you?? Very good captaincy by Ganguly??

Khan got the 7th wkt in 82nd over. Next 11 overs gave away 56 runs!!!! 56 runs !!! At any time, did our bowlers look like getting a wkt?? So, what is the use of bowling 3 extra overs and giving away 12 run? Nothing but foolishness....

By Unknown, at 11:52
jai:

Do you realize how tired Zaheer was in the field? This guy was having trouble bending and picking up the ball. Kumble bowled 20 overs continuously till the end. He is 35 years old not an 18 year old STUD. Did you see hom many boundaries he gave aways in the final 10 overs?

Did you read cricinfo commentary of last 10 overs? Kumble was able to beat the bat only twice between over # 80 and 93!!! What does that tell you?? Very good captaincy by Ganguly??

Khan got the 7th wkt in 82nd over. Next 11 overs gave away 56 runs!!!! 56 runs !!! At any time, did our bowlers look like getting a wkt?? So, what is the use of bowling 3 extra overs and giving away 12 run? Nothing but foolishness....

By Unknown, at 11:52
Read this from S. Rajesh's column in cricinfo
"Among the two spinners on view, there was little doubt about who finished on top. Anil Kumble bounded in from start to finish on a first-day track, got his legbreak to turn a fair bit, and richly deserved both his wickets. Harbhajan Singh, on the other hand, made little impression despite getting appreciable turn.
....
India's fielding wasn't spot-on either - Dinesh Karthik and Rahul Dravid fumbled a couple of chances, but the shocker came from the captain early on, when he made little effort to cut off an on-drive from Hamilton Masakadza which only went a few yards to his left. Perhaps Duffin will invite him for a race in body suits at the end of the series. "

Any more inputs abt the bowling, please? And were those misses by RD and DK easy enough to be called chances?

By Toney, at 13:26
thanks tiger. Really cant understand this lack of energy more than anything else. I mean, p[eople and teams might go through phases where they are not in great form but even then, the attitude and approach should be fine. Wonder when that "young and exuberant" feel would be back. Maybe, these guys should all play some other game for sometime, to shake off the boredom at least.

By Toney, at 13:45
couldnt agree with samir more. The betting mafia wouldnt bother paying money to a team in such poor form. So, if there's any money changing hands, lets all point fingers at the Kiwis :)

By Toney, at 13:54
jai:

So, Kumble was rushing through his overs. And still you think that he was trying to take wickets? I have not seen any spinner rush thru his overs in order to take wickets. If you go for wickets, you bowl to a plan. If you are rushing thru your overs, you are doing it to make sure your quota is completed by the end of the day. So, according to you, Ganguly wants to take wickets and Kumble is rushing thru his overs... Am I missing something here or did you make a self-contradictory statement??

I don't know what you were watching when you say that our bowlers looked to pick up one extra wicket in the final overs!!! We gave away 56 runs in last 11 overs, man. And we had number 9 batsman of second grade ZIM team scoring 35 out of them!!! And still you say that you thought that we could take one extra wicket? I am really surprised. Let me see again. Number 9 batsman of ZIM scores 35 by the end of the day against our supposedly good bowling!!! It doesn't look right to me.

It is a fact that #9 scored 35 runs. So, the only thing wrong can be that our bowling was good. #9 batsman cannot score 35 against good bowling. But it happened. And that is why I siad that what was the need to bowl 3 extra overs and give away 12 runs for nothing?

See, I am not against Kumble not taking wkts towards the end or giving aways runs because any bowler would be tired after bowling 20 consecutive overs. Even in final Ashes test, Warne became ineffective towards the end of the innings because he had been bowling for too long. Ponting gave him a break of few overs and Warne came back to take 2 wkts in 3 balls. That's what I am talking about.

Ganguly let a tired and ageing Kumble bowl 20 consecutive overs at the end and missed putting real pressure on #9 by bowling Khan and fresh Pathan together. If not Khan, had Bhajji (after his rest) bowled a few overs with Pathan in place of Kumble, it would have been better. Who know we might have got that extra wkt!!! With Kumble we certainly did not. That is why I am critisizing Ganguly, for missing the point and the plot.

By Unknown, at 14:05
was there any bounce in the pitch? HS and AK getting lots of turn, should be an interesting couple of days from here on

By Toney, at 14:18
anand:

I have said it before too, that the only reason for such indifferent performance from Dravid is that he is terribly upset for loosing captaincy when he deserved it. And that too, loosing it to a man who should not be in the team in the first place.

Many people think that Dravid is a class act and a team player and beyond these feelings. But I think before being anything else, Dravid is a human being. Just like any other person, he get affected by everything that happens around him. Not just me, even Harsha Bhogle said so during the ODI series.

Dravid was not expecting to loose captaincy after SL series but he did. He was not prepared for that news and could not keep his cool after hearing it. The thing is that he is taking a long time to get over his loss. It is not that he is delibrately trying to play bad. He is just not his old self on the field and that is affecting him badly.

Anyone would feel the same way he is feeling. Just like we said that Sachin had the right to feel angry with Dravid when Dravid declared ths innings with sachin on 194, Dravid is also very angry with Ganguly being the captain. Only thing is that his anger is affecting him more than what we expected.

Some may think that Darvid and Ganguly are friends and understand each other because they have played together for long. But so what? Don't friends get angry with each other? Is your friendship more important than your career?? I don't think so. Friendship and all is okay upto the point where it is not affecting you professionally or personally. When your career starts getting affected, friendship flies out of the window.

By Unknown, at 14:18
Ruchir,
That feeling of hurt might increase if the selectors have a re-think on captaincy issues and select a third person from there on :-)
And there are lots of things in life that aren't fair. For eg, Wright had stated that Kumble was the best option for captaincy, yet he was never given a chance. RD should learn to take this in his stride as well. Being captain is not as important as the feeling of satisfaction that you always gave your best. And I hope RD thinks that way.

By Toney, at 14:34
anand:

I agree that Dravid overcame crtisizm and unfairness etc. But see, he had directly control over those issues. He could improve his batting to stop criticizm and he did. He was desperate of loosing place in ODI team, so he took up wicket-kkeping. His strong performances brought recognition with them and reduced the unfair treamtment to a large extent.

But what has happened now is beyond his control. He can not fix captaincy issue all by himslef. That is why he is seething mad and getting afected.

In fact, I am hoping that captaincy be the only issue with him. Because, this issue looks like resolving itself on its own. Ganguly will surely loose place in ODI team. Next in line is Dravid. If there is anything else that is wrong with Dravid, it is bad for the team and Dravid himslef.

By Unknown, at 14:42
toney:

I agree that Dravid should take the cue from Kumble. Probably he will.

I will be surprised if selectors select a new guy for captaincy instead of Dravid. And Dravid will be surely devastated.

I think the right way to go would be to make Dravid as ODI captain and choose the vice captain very very wisely. Vice captain should be our future captain. Any other adhoc selection will again ruin the flow for future and create problem where there will be more than one new faces trying to grab captaincy. I can see Sehwag, Kaif and Bhajji fighting in future.

That is why, it is essential that selectors select the vice captain with an eye on future so that when Dravid goes, transfer of captaincy is smooth and without hiccups.

Of course, knwoing how BCCI works, it can be called wishful thinking.

By Unknown, at 14:48
I have been reading through the comments about Team India's (non)performance. Lethargic and listless fielding and mindless bowling. So much has been made of SG's leadership quality, I haven't seen any of those on view, of late. Shocking to find RD is missing catches. With all the politics that goes on BCCI ( captaincy issue, kaif issue etc ), they are going to screw up every other good player or atleast try their level best. Let's see what they do with IP next, as he is trying to perform well.

By sv, at 14:57
Guys I dont know why the commentary team made such a big deal of Ganguly being India's most capped captain. It was embarrassing to see a guy failing so bad in either of his jobs being congratulated like that. I reckon Ganguly was a bit embarrassed himself--didn't seem like he knew what to say.

By Dhruv Deepak, at 15:17
just reading through some of the post-Ashes material, anyone noticed that none of the English players actually took a swipe at the Aussies after the victory? They have behaved like perfect gentlemen (in that respect at least). Of course, Ponting in defiance continues to say that the Aussies are still the number 1 teamd he is not overly bothered abt this one series defeat. Yeah, whatever... They are still very much the best team in world cricket but just cannot buy the theory that he's not very disturbed by this loss.

By Toney, at 16:32
I am waiting for the day when McGrath retires and AUS play their first game without him. They played 2 tests in Ashes without him and lost both.

After that, let Warne retire. It is then, that AUS will stop being a great team and will fight to remain good.

McGrath is 36, Warne is 36, Hayden is 34, Macgill is 35, Langer is 35, Gilchrist is 34. These players, along with Ponting, form the nucleus of AUS team.

By the end of 2006 McGrath and Warne will retire and AUS will find it near impossible to fill their shoes. Hayden, Langer and Gilchrist will find it hard to recover lost form as they are now nearing their retirement age.

So, to me it looks like AUS has about one year more being #1. After that, the place will be up for grabs...

By Unknown, at 17:01
TOI names Muralitharan as the SLan (at last)
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1230042.cms

I never expected this part, even from TOI though
the news about a Sri Lankan cricketer —- without actually naming the legendary leg-spinner —-

If Murali is proven guilty, by the way, Shane Warne doesnt have to worry about losing his place in the record books. He is already the best spinner ever and it is fair that he gets to hold all related records

By Toney, at 17:09
issaicn,
I am talking abt the "bar girl from Mumbai" episode which has been in the news lately. Try the link, there's enough sleaze in there for the evening :)

By Toney, at 17:24
jai,
Couldnt resist this since we have exchanged a fair bit on the SG matter. Isnt it possible that just as the anti-SG faction (I am president of that, according to lots of guys :-) )is blinded into believing that everything SG does harms the team and is an example of bad captaincy, the very pro-guys like you also face a similar problem? And please dont say that you think you provide an unbiased opinion; everyone thinks on those lines which is one of the biggest problems anywhere

By Toney, at 17:24
exactly, isfan... that was too much even for TOI

By Toney, at 17:42
jai:

Buddy, I have every right to form my own opinion about Ganguly and I have every right to voice my opinion wherever I want to voice it.

I am proud of it and will proudly say that I DO NOT LIKE GANGULY AS A CAPTAIN AND AS A PLAYER.

I have every right to say it. Why does it bother you so much? And if it does, the hell I care....

I can't understand why you guys (who like Ganguly) start crying every time someone critisizes him? If you don't like the points raised against him then make your points in his favor. But I have seen that very quickly the writing pattern of you guys becomes very accusing; as if people like me are doing a big crime in pointing out Ganguly's short-comings.

I ask you a question. Is it a crime if I form an opinion against Ganguly? Is it a crime if I write that opinion here? Is this blog not to be used for posting our opinions and discussing them with others? So what!, if my opinion is against Ganguly and your in favor of him? I have never said to anybody that you can not voice your opinions here, but the way you are writing your posts, you are sounding as if you consider it a crime that I have written against Ganguly.

Well, my friend, if that is how you feel then so be it. I don't care. I will continue to write my opinions here. If you agree with them, fine; if you don't, even better.

And for my talking numbers only, I am not just talking numbers, I am talking facts. It is a FACT that #9 scored 35 runs. I don't care if he played and missed or was rapped on the pads. FACT is that he is still batting on 35. My point was that had Kumble been replaced by Bhajji towards the end (specially after bhajji got rest) we might, might, have taken a wkt. FYI, Kumble was able to beat any of the batsmen only once, I repeat, once in his last 10 tired overs. So much for him looking to take wickets. Fact is that Ganguly never thought of replacing Kumble. Mind you, and I will repeat myself, I am not pointing out problems with Kumble or Zaheer or Pathan. I am merely saying that keeping Kumble on for 20 overs till the end of the day was not the right decision.

Kumble is a great bowler, who will never say to his captain that he too is tired to bowl. Remember, against WI, he bowled with a broken jaw and took out Lara!! That is his commitment. But then he was younger. Now he is over 35. His body is tiring sooner than before. A tired body can not bowl the sme way as a fresh body can. Ganguly did not realize this today.

I don't remember Kumble bowling 20 continuous overs towards the end of the day even in his younger years. So, I don't believe you when you say that Kumble was full of energy and looking to take wickets. I can not believe that any bowler would rush thru his overs and look for wkts at the same time. Also, you try to put words into my writing when you accuse me of thinking that bowling to a plan means having a meeting after every ball. I never said that. So what's up with it?? Show me one example of any bowler in the world who has rushed thru his overs in Tests looking for a wicket.

Anyways, I will keep up with my pointing out Ganguly's faults, as and when he makes them. Since I started writing here, I have always maintained that we must target our critisizm only at the deserving person. Initiall, when everyone was critisizing the entire team, I used to speak in their favor because it was my belief that entire team was not at fault when we lost. Right now, it is my belief that Ganguly is making mistakes as a captain that he should not be making, more so because he has 5 years of experience behind him. He should be in the mode of taking right decisions more often than not, but the opposite is happening.

By Unknown, at 22:28
jgohill (and all the "jai"s here),
dude, if you disagree with me or for that matter anyone else and cannot take a difference in opinion in the right spirit, then I guess there's little that anyone can do, right? Its a pity you have to resort to sick comments rather than try replying with reason.

By Toney, at 22:36
Wonder if Dona would be as hurt as some of the guys here when SG is criticized...
And Jai
If the anti-guys goes slow on Ganguly, I think we won't be discussing Ganguly at all because then there will be no need to defend him.

Has anyone forced you to defend SG each time he is criticized? So whats your point there? Just because you are a big fan of SG, no one here should be criticizing him? Some kind of compromise? In that case, how about everyone naming their personal favourites here. We'll all stop criticizing the named cricketers, alright? For heaven's sake, lighten up and dont take everything so personally...

By Toney, at 22:47
back2grave:

Dude, why don't you go back to where you name suggests you came from? If you can't understand my thoughts maybe you are not smart enough!!! Why just RD, I guess Ganguly is to be blamed every time you get verbal diarrhea.

Do you really believe Ganguly deserves captaincy and did not indulge in any politics to get it back from Dravid?

By Unknown, at 23:12
mack turle:

What you are saying is like dicussing a hypothetical situation.

Early in the ZIM innings, Kumble was bowling with Khan and match was just drifting. At that time I had pointed out that Ganguly should bring in Bhajji with Kumble to put more pressure. After a few overs, Ganguly did that and the result was that Kumble got 2 wkts.

I am not saying that I can predict future. I was just reading the game at that time and was thinking what would I do if I was the captain.

Similarly, maybe Bhajji may not have taken a wkt or he may have. Who know what would have happened unless Ganguly actually tried Bhajji and he failed to take a wkt.

And you are wrong to say that Kumble had just taken 2 wkts and was in fine rhythm. The time period we are discussing about is the last 10-12 overs when Kumble hardly troubled anyone and had been bowling for 20 consecutive overs.

By Unknown, at 23:18
mock turtle:

It is proof enough that he got the captaincy back.

While making Dravid captain, selectors had said that they are keeping future options for captaincy open and would decide based on the results of SL series.

Question is, did Dravid do any worse than Ganguly. I never heard any commentrator or even Prem arguing that Dravid's captaincy was worse than Ganguly's. So why did selectors give captaincy back to Ganguly?

By Unknown, at 23:27
Guys, Chill..
This series is going to be much more competitive than the Ashes. The fight for the eigth place is at stake. So let us all rise above pro-captian and anti-captain feelings and support our team

Rgds
Ravi

By Karrileaf, at 23:40
vick:

I don't want Ganguly to do anything 'cause he is on his way out anyway.

Jai:

Don't respond to this post but read it anyways.
1. I don't have personal vendetta against SG. If I had, I would have said I don't like him as a person. I said I don't like him as a player and captain. If you can't understand plain english, it will be difficult explainging anything to you.
2. I never stopped you from praising Ganguly. I only asked you why you get angry if I critisizr him?
3. I don't have to play cricket at any level to question ganguly. Tell me, are all the political commentrators politician? Should they leave political commentary because they are not? What ridiculous things are you saying?
4. I don't have to furnish any proof to you. Who are you? I am making my opinion knwon. It is based on many reports published on Rediff and other sites.
5. You ask me to shut up, say how dare I say things... and then you talk of my upbringing? You should look at your posts and see how you are writing; you will probably feel ashamed of yourself. Keep the personal stuff out, man.

By Unknown, at 23:51
mock turtle:

Mr.Joshi, just extrapolating your "politics" theory, do you think RD could have "indulged" in politics and bought out some of the journalists to bash Ganguly? Not entirely outside the scope of *YOUR* logic, right?

Yeah sure, why not? Dravid can surely do that, he is rich after all. If you choose to believe that then by all means, go ahead, who is stopping you? No one will hold it against you if you think that Dravid has paid journalists to bad mouth Ganguly. Every one is entitled to his opinion and I will respect this opinion of yours.

By Unknown, at 23:59
For all Ganguly supporter, here are some extracts of what Prem commented on IND-NZ final match... (some food for your thoughts)... :))

*****

...we are right back where we started from.

Someone once said, if you do not understand, and admit, your mistakes, you cant start correcting them.

*****

Jai said...

Prem,
It's obvious that Ganguly was not comfortable using spinners from both ends during powerplay. Whether the spinners would have been successful during powerplay, it's debatable.

Really?

The previous six overs, with the field in, went for 16 runs in 6 overs and two wickets fell -- would that explain why, as soon as the power play was called, you turn to the one bowler who was so expensive you earlier took him off after just two overs? To see whether spinners would have been successful, consider the fact that Bajji bowled through the power plays. Want to know how he went? one run in the 24th. 3 in the 26th. 1 in the 28th. 3 in the 30th. At the other end, Pathan 9 in the 25th. Yadav 14 in the 27th. Sorry, pal, that cat doesnt jump.

*****

Ravi asks the question that invariably gets asked: What can you do if your bowlers give it away?

Let me see -- without being the 'most successful captain of all time' I and several others on this blog suggested that slowing the game down by introducing spin was the best option... this, 12 overs before SG thought of it.

Spin was finally introduced. Wicket fell. Suggested the power play be introduced. It was not, and for six overs, while India bowled tight at both ends, no power play. Then the power play was introduced -- and the bowler who bowled 4 overs for 12 runs and two wickets was taken off, the most expensive bowler was given the ball back, and went for 9. Which was too little, so next time, another bowler was given the ball -- not the successful one, mind -- and he went for 14.

Let me see, at the end of 24 overs, India were 153/1. New Zealand at that point were 139/2. Thanks to all those shenanigans, intelligent bowling changes et al, at the end of the 29th over India were 170/3. And surprise, surprise, New Zealand had climbed back to 170/2.

Enough said?

****

Get some idea about Ganguly's brilliant captaincy?

By Unknown, at 00:06
mock turtle:

I agree I am full of baseless theories but just a little less than you...

By Unknown, at 00:07
Got to go now. You guys keep posting. Will read them tomorrow...

By Unknown, at 00:08
jai:

Could not help replying to you. You said:
I am not responsding to the rest of your post because you won't understand anyway. So there's no point.

That is why I wrote "Do not reply...". See, how angry you guys become for no reason? You have become so paranoid that you are now forgetting things that you said few minutes ago!!!

My, my, my.... I am much better being against him.

By Unknown, at 00:16

Sight Screen

Tuesday, September 13, 2005

Time for 'real' cricket - Ind-Zim: Open thread

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