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Sight Screen

Monday, September 05, 2005

here it comes

Just as we had been discussing through this ashes series, here it comes. ICC will experiment on this new technology for judging lbw through replays.

And, guess what, it happened because Aus (and Eng sometimes) were feeling the heat of the 'wrong' decisions of umpires. And the likes of Warne were making the sounds. Doesn't matter that we have been getting the stick from the same umpires for so many series.

And the justification What if Steve Harmison had been out in similar fashion, giving Australia the victory they needed to retain the Ashes?

It would take some of the gloss off the biggest sporting event of the year if human error decided the outcome.

So, the less bigger sporting events of the year (umm e.g. Ind-Pak test series) are not important. Hence those did not merit a rethink on re-use of technology.

posted by worma at 6:11 AM

57 Comments:

  • I think this shows that Steve Bucknor's shocking decisions against SRT can get away free but not the same ones against the likes of Bell, Martyn, etc.

    Dont know how Dalmiya has never managed to breach this territory yet. Maybe since this has got nothing to do with money...

    By Blogger Madhu Rao, at 06:55  

  • yeah madhurg thats my lament also. the ICC administration...the various committee heads, the whole paraphernalia...they seem to closely follow and mintor these 'important' series....but no one cares whats happening in poor India playing poor Pakistan on the dustbowls of the poor country. Sunil Gavaskar seems to be the only ICC admin member following our games. Any else ? Do they have any people monitoring our games ? Do they have any subcontinent representation in the ICC setup (or even from WI, SA etc) who are focussing on games not involving Aus, Eng ?

    All rule changes, all ICC technical issues are dominated by these two countries. Even when they have a few token representatives from Pakistan, India etc.

    And yeah, I also wish Dalmiya had done something about this. But as you said, no money here ;)

    By Blogger worma, at 07:12  

  • amit, ofcourse I am rejoicing ! very very welcome change, it would make world of difference to the game. I don't want to spoil my five precious days watching a game marred by a stupid decision made by an umpire who is missing a simple information that everyone else in the world is getting.

    First of all, most of the people who oppose the use of technology don't even know for sure how reliable it is. If its reliable in saying how much the ball would have swung or spun, why not. Then its great to use it. Going by hawkeye, it does seem that its able to make that judgement. I dont think the game is balanced because 'sometimes' the bowlers get an lbw when there is an edge involved, and sometimes the batsmen get away despite the ball pitching in line of leg(instead of outside). I dont think it evens out. How do you know what final score a batsmen(wrongly given out) would have ended up with ? If you don't know that(unless you are God, or illogical:) ) then you cant argue that it evens out.

    As you rightly guessed, my rant is about all the 'valuable' changes being governed and directed by the Eng and Aus administrators, to suit Eng and Aus players etc.

    If Dalmiya had done something about this, I don't care how that would have been labelled, I would still have been happy at the attention. As also I dont care today about the reasons for the preference given to India for business related aspects of the game

    By Blogger worma, at 09:14  

  • I must admit the post reeks a bit of the subcontinental chip on the shoulder - instead of taking the positive view that whatever the reason, ultimately a forward looking development has come out of the ICC. Given that neither India or pakistan are involved in a series at the moment ( and it's been a while since they were involved in a close one), what exactly is so inflammatory about the ICC using an example of the current test series which is probably the closest and most exciting one for a while ?
    About time to lose the victim complex I say...

    By Blogger Piyush Pant, at 09:17  

  • piyush...read my views above. I am very happy about it. But to remove my victim complex, can you tell me exactly why this is being taken up NOW ? Has the technology improved since our Ind-pak series ? Has anyone come up with a new irrefutable argument in favour of technology use ? (the new argument being give by ICC is that 'biggest sporting event of year' thing !...well thats their view isn't it, to me biggest event can be an Ind-Pak or an Ind-SL series?)

    And what is this about 'close series' that you mention ? Why should it be brought up because we have a close series ? This should have nothing to do with close series, its about finishing a series with less heartburns for the fans (of either or both sides)

    Tiger, sure we can back up Pakitan's claim. But did this technology ruling come from Aus claiming it, and Eng backing their claim ? No, it came 'automatically' because the ICC machinery is 'watching' their game and taking right signals from there. And btw, I dont think they can mutually agree to use of more technology unless ICC has sanctioned it (either in optional or mandatory category). Nor can they ask the ICC umpires to comply with their mutually accepted criteria. The umpires follow the ICC rules, not mutually agreed principles. Why would the ICC have a problem with it...well no they wont..but they would listen to it, debate it, then may or may not make a law out of it.

    And that time excuse is really lame. As some commentator (in ashes, or in videocon series) recently said, they spend so much time analysing a diff between 3 and 4 runs (as field stops at boundary) which is just a matter of 1 run, while the lbw can be a matter of winning and loosing a game !

    By Blogger worma, at 09:27  

  • Worma,
    Unless the changes coincide with an india or Pak series, you can always make the "why now" arguement and hint at some sinister conspiracy. The fact is there is Indian and Pakistani representation in the ICC decision making proces now ( Gavaskar, Ehsan mani ) etc. I would prefer to take the better late than never view and just applaud the decision.

    By Blogger Piyush Pant, at 10:00  

  • tiger, quite true. So next time we feel to be getting the stick because of umpires(or any other rule), what we do is pray that the same problem comes up in an Aus-Eng match!
    ..ok I'm exaggerating, but u get the hang of it ;-)

    By Blogger worma, at 10:03  

  • I had posted this on the other blog - but posting it again here since this is more recent!!!

    I dont know how many of you in India watch the channel - Sahara News - and a program called "SILLY POINT" on every match-day, doing the analysis of the match, take user-calls, etc. Usually the program consists of Kirti Azad, Ashok Malhotra (both ex-selectors) and either Maninder Singh or Srinath.

    During the program, Maninder raised the point to both the ex-selectors that what happens during selection? Do selectors push people from their own zones, etc? In reply to this, Ashok Malhotra explicitly mentioned that during selections of India-A and Board Presidents XI teams, selectors push their zonal players!!! But this doesnt happen for TEAM INDIA. He was also claiming responsiblity of discovering players like sehwag, yuveraj, kaif and even dhoni.

    Kirti on the other hand, remained silent and said that when he tried to do things the other way, people wouldnt allow him to do it.

    So, now publicly, its been acknowledged that zonal choicism has a say in selection matters.

    Why have India-A matches from now on? or for that matter select BP11 teams for visiting teams? Its just a farce.

    By Blogger Madhu Rao, at 10:04  

  • piyush, so you are saying that the rule changes have not happened because of the bad decisions in Ashes ? Wow, you seem to be acquiting the ICC of a bias which they themselves have so much as conceded in their statment! Did you read it + The part about 'the biggest sporting event of the year' etc ?

    I would not have made a 'why now' statement had they not overtly stated the reason for 'why now'.

    Dude the ICC decision making process is not equally represented by Asians. And even if it was, I dont care as long as they collectively are not looking at the asian games to get active inputs for their change process.

    By Blogger worma, at 10:08  

  • madhugr, zonal selection is not a problem...each region would have its representatives...they would watch games of their zones...and put up the case of these good players in such selectorial meetings...if (and its big IF) they all did their job honestly, and without applying pressure tactics...then these cases put up by zonal selectors wud be taken up by central selectorial committee..which would call the selection camp for those players whose name has been reccomended...in these selectorial camps they would judge all such aspirants on same platform (team management would closely watch them, give inputs etc). Its similar to the parliamentary system we have where the MPs bring up the case of their regions...are debated upon etc.

    So, it depends upon the people who are holding the position...not the system itself (which may have some problems, but is not outrightly flawed). I think its pretty similar in Aus also (but not sure exactly, once we brought his up earlier, and thought would discuss it with Prem. Lets see if PREM is reading these comments :) )

    And btw, in parliamentary system also, this process fails because of bad personnel, not bad system ;-)

    By Blogger worma, at 10:16  

  • tiger..on that off-topic itself...doesn't it seem that Ehsan Mani is just the token Asian there (unlike Dalmiya). These days, in all ICC related matters, you get to read his name. Mani's is conspicuously absent !
    Sachin, yep that was the point we discussed earlier also. That Bucknor would not get away with Crimes against Royalty :)

    By Blogger worma, at 10:27  

  • but then jd, is complaining in media the official way of sending the message to ICC ? Btw, I distinctly remember reading somewhere that Ganguly has given poor rating to Bucknor during some series (I think the Aus tour down under). The ICC could have read the report, and asked Saurav for clarifications. Surely then they wud have known the flaws in decisions. This looks to me to be a better process than the ICC reading current and past aussie cricketers making noise in the media. I also remember reading somewhere that the captains reports on umpires and umpiring (which is to be submited after each series by both captains) doesnt count for much. Although I am not sure if this is true or not.

    btw, do you think that the use of technology for lbw etc has never been brought out in media earlier ??? Or do you mean we need to go and submit it to the english and aussie media ?

    By Blogger worma, at 10:33  

  • Preview of the Final between India and NZ on my blog - http://myhistoryisinteresting.blogspot.com/2005/09/india-in-finals.html

    Have a look !!!

    By Blogger Madhu Rao, at 10:34  

  • jd, yes the ICC hq is shifting to Dubai (they are constructing the building right now, the move should be soon, if I remember correctly...in months not in years)

    tiger, for posting links you need to use html tags...manually...or else just use some html composer to make a tag template and use it.

    By Blogger worma, at 10:42  

  • jd, forgot to add, its not about the location I think. Its about the people and mindset prevelant there.

    By Blogger worma, at 10:43  

  • Piyush,
    no need to bring out the ictim-complex thing here. It is a known fact the ICC did crap when India raised any issues. Now I dont know if the BCCI made enough noise about it. But it is obvious that when Ponting or MV raises an issue, it needs to be resolved immediately.
    And that analogy about Papua New Guinea and Guinea Bisau playing kabbaddi is not accurate. As far as I know, Pakistan, India or SL are not the Papua New Guineas of cricket. What is being suggested anyway? If a country is not doing good in cricket (or is a low profile nation), ignore its constructive suggestions??

    By the way, any attempt at using more techology is extremely good. Remember that Hawk Eye is 100% accurate and has a very high reliability. (No decision which the HawkEye has shown looked bad and there were very few instances where HawkEye could not make a decision). And in any case, I would prefer technology to completely take over what Bucknor does. Bucknor should have been in a coffin a long time ago.

    By Blogger Toney, at 10:48  

  • toney well said...and LOL :) (about Bucknor..how I despised him in those evenings :-))

    jd, ofcourse its the same people, just sitting in a tax-free location instead of London. Thats all.

    By Blogger worma, at 10:52  

  • Well said Worma. I think there is an element of bias within the ICC.

    But unfortunately, our boards do not make it any easier by conductng themselves in a totally unprofessional manner, as they have demonstrated again and again.

    Would love to be a fly on the wall and see how these matters are communicated in the ICC meetings.

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 11:31  

  • Agree JD, more often then not the batsmen get the benefit of the doubt. In my opinion, use of technnology to assist in lbw decisions in Test matches will lead to more 3-day Tests.

    I think the ICC is aware of this fact and has been hesitent to use Technology for lbw decisions.

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 11:48  

  • saurabh somehow I have a feeling that more often than not, in those benefit of doubt cases, the batsmen really is not-out. The other way round if more often true (although, in some of those benefit of doubt cases, hawk-eye is not referred). But anyway, we'll soon get to see. Since its being experimented in the super series (ironically that test match is 6 days :)

    By Blogger worma, at 11:54  

  • Ishii, you kidding right? Invest money in domestic cricket and make it more interesting? Surely, that can't be what the BCCI want...

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 12:10  

  • unless someone can make them see money coming out of it as well. I think BCCI can do a lot of things right even if they hone their skills related to the pursuit of money ! E.g. the whole tv right thing...so much money there....so much better coverage possible for us (compare our cricket covg to that of ashes and ull know what I mean!)....and this whole domestics leage...make it interesting..invest in it...make people watch it (like in UK) bring in ideas like 20-20...make people watch it...get in sponsors...corporates etc

    By Blogger worma, at 12:14  

  • talking of technology, can you guys think of a sport that uses technology more than cricket?

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 12:20  

  • well saurabh i cannot think of another sport complicated enough where even the most ardent fan(and sometimes the umpires also) needs to refer to a rule book...and most of them dont know 'it all' :)

    By Blogger worma, at 12:21  

  • You people have come to know about the news today?

    I read about it 2 days back, in Guardian:

    http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cricket/story/0,10069,1561256,00.html?gusrc=rss

    By Blogger Chandan, at 12:23  

  • Ishii, i was being sarcastic as well :-)

    Actually, I agree with you 100%.

    Sadly, the BCCI is not professional enough to think on those lines so no point in wishful thinking...

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 12:23  

  • Football; off side and line calls and fouls especially Penalties - NO TECHNOLOGY IS USED

    Baseball; Strikes and Run outs-NO TECHNOLOGY IS USED

    These are two sports which could benefit from Technology. But for some reason they don't and the world just accepts it. You know why? Because the admintrators have not crossed the line and been firm on NOT using technology. FULL-STOP.

    With cricket, the ICC have crossed that line that divides TECHNOLOGY and NO-TECHNOLOGY and hence the players and fans want more. There is no stopping after that...

    Once you start messing around, there is no end to how much is enough.

    Same problem I have with Powerplay and Supersubs....

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 12:32  

  • saurabh, the pressures on referees is not that high...umpires have to decide so many things on every delivery...its humanly impossible...and then u have this 'benefit of doubt' thing....

    By Blogger worma, at 12:42  

  • Trust me, the pressure of a wrong penalty in a World-cup game is much higher then any lbw decision an umpire will give in any Test match or Cricket world-cup.

    I am not saying cricket is poorer by use of Technology. All I am saying is that having embraced it, the ICC have no option but go all the way. It's a question of when, not if, technology will be used in LBW's...

    England were knocked out of the European Football cup couple of years ago when the refree disallowed an English goal in the 90th minute. The video suggested that the goal should have counted. A lot of English fans went up in arms but not many people suggested that football should use technology. Reason; It's not an option as far as the game is concerned.

    On the other hand, if FIFA had been using Technology, for say off-sides, then the demand for extending Technology in other aspects of the game would have gathered pace...

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 12:55  

  • Ishii, call me a old-f@rt, but I am not in favour of building domestic cricket strutures on the lines of professional sporting bodies like NFL, NBA, or English Premiership. They have a very different agenda (of the individual club over the country) which would not work in cricket.

    Does not mean they don't have to be professional though :-)

    In my opinion, cricketing bodies do not have to look beyond Cricket to set up good strcutures.

    Australia and English cricket provide very good examples of a structure that works at all levels...

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 13:03  

  • Ishii, I cannot agrue Technology though I would prefer to see the game without it being used (but that is a personal choice);

    All i am saying is if you embrace it, go all the way.

    If football do embrace this sensors, etc that they will have to go all the way.

    And all this talk about Cricket being a difficult game, etc is rubbish. A wrong decision is a wrong decision; easy or diffcult...

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 13:06  

  • yacrik, good point but again, cricket has gone beyond that point.

    Try telling the TV companies that they will not be able to use Hawk-eye now. Too late...

    By Blogger Saurabh Wahi, at 13:11  

  • Just a couple of clarifications:

    1. Abt HawkEye predicting what would have happened if the ball had not hit the batsman's pads (whether it would have swung, turned etc): This does not matter in any case. Say the ball hits a batsman full on the pads. Now, the ball may have swung or it may not have. Butall that the umpire has to and should look at is the path of the ball and whether it would have hit the stumps, if it CONTINUED in that path. Same thing for hawkEye.

    2. Somebody said that the umpire would have to make judgements for judging where the ball pitched even if technology were used. That is NOT RIGHT. HawkEye clearly shows where the ball pitches. The umpire does not have to make a judgement on that.

    3. Inside Edges: HE does not show that. But technologies like "Snickometer" are becoming increasingly reliable. If technology can be used for net-calls, then why not for this? If video shows this clearly one way or the other, then thats one less headache.

    4. Accuracy: HawkEye is 100% accurate. The guys who brought forward this technology stand by this statement. If HE comes to a decision (whether the ball would or would not hit the stumps), it has always been correct, never wrong. There are cases in which HE cannot come to a decision at all. In this case, just give the benefit of doubt to the batsman.

    5. Slowng down the game: Dont think so. How long does it take to refer to the 3rd umpire to confrm something that technology clearly shows/ Its not like a bumped catch or a very close run-out where there aren't enough frames for the video and the 3rd umpire has to review the pictures several times without any great use.

    6. Other sports using it: Not an excuse in any case, but somebody gave a few great uses of technology in other sports. Football (soccer i.e.) is a continuous game. It would seem out of place to stop the game and refer to technology. Even then, say an offside occurs during a game. The ref can easily know this through communication systems. In contrast, football is not a contnuous game. We can easily wait for a decision after each ball.

    By Blogger Toney, at 13:35  

  • yacrik, did you chance to click on the link in the post ?

    By Blogger worma, at 13:38  

  • something to add in point 1:
    If a spinner was bowling and hit the batsman on the full, it is not required to (and should not be) consider whether the might have spun, bounced or done anything, had it hit the ground. All that the umpire should see, is the same thing as before, whether th ball travelling in that path would have gone on to hit the stumps.

    By Blogger Toney, at 13:38  

  • yacrik, I seem to think that he should be given enough chance before being thrown out for good. It is Saurav Ganguly who seems to think he is good. Again, read that post.

    By Blogger worma, at 13:41  

  • so is that story true ?

    By Blogger worma, at 13:44  

  • This is what the report says So much so the International Cricket Council (ICC) will embark on a technological experiment in next month's Super Series, when a World Select XI takes on Australia in three one-day matches and a six-day Test.

    and this is what you say As per the cricket laws - MCC is the custodian. ICC borrows it from them officially.
    Is MCC going to act based on matches between Ind-Pak or Aus-Eng. I have a feeling worma shoots off without much fact or any basis for most part.

    By Blogger worma, at 13:47  

  • what was SG's claim on world cup ?

    By Blogger worma, at 13:48  

  • and lets deal with this ICC, MCC thing first. Dude if you have an agenda, tell me. I say "you win"....game over ?

    By Blogger worma, at 13:49  

  • yacrik : (a)What can I do about what ganguly said. If you want to make a statement, google it and give us the link

    (b) I dont have any agenda, I write what I feel, nothing hidden. I openly say I back ganguly, and I try to give reasons why. In fact, I've also said that I am not a die-hard ganguly fan, I would have supported any other player in his position. I am not a die-hard fan of any indian player per se.

    (c) Related to world cup, I do remember in the last match thread someone said that ganguly made centuries against weak countries in the WC, and my response was that India could have lost one or more of those matches. Kenya had beaten a few countries, so could they have done it against India.

    (d) About this ICC, MCC thing, you said something which you did not back up with any proof or argument. And then you made reference to my statement with a tangential implication ????

    lastly, thanks for liking my writing style. But dude, if you really dont have an agenda (I believe you) then believe me, neither do I. Lets keep this as healthy and open discussion, with no hidden implications. Right ?

    By Blogger worma, at 14:02  

  • so, what is the point ?

    By Blogger worma, at 14:22  

  • do you drop players for making supposedly outrageous claims ?

    By Blogger worma, at 14:23  

  • ..and two years 'after' making the claims ?

    By Blogger worma, at 14:23  

  • ilovecricket, yes actually I feel that even India would do well with batting first...the tentativeness of their batting lineup can be covered by the less pressure of batting first. And then, as you said, that would also put Nz on pressure (if we get a decent total) since they themselves have not batted well in any game after their first match against Zim in Bulawayo.

    yacrik, as far as I know, there are 10s of articles recently where Ganguly has agreed that he has a problem with his batting and he is sorting out. So that takes care of the worry you have (of his not acknowledging). Whether he had a problem at the time of WC or now it not important now, since what he says now supersedes it.

    And if you talk of lean trot, the I dont want to do the exercise of digging out stats again to prove that he has been better than many (check out his avg etc compared to Sehwag, Kaif, Yuv etc before the start of this season in SL) in past 2 years or so. I think many people have also done similar exercise of digging out statistics. But since statistics is not giving out the full story, let me remind all you that our last ODI win against a strong country outside the subcontinent(before this current tour) came because of Saurav Ganguly. Do you remember the three match ODI series we played against England before the ICC trophy ?

    By Blogger worma, at 14:36  

  • India won that match against Eng because of his 90 and Eng attack had Harmison, Gough still at the opening. he scored an 87 against Aus in the VB series 2nd game, scored 45, 39, 45 in pak series (series wasnt lost, as that went to last game)...i can't do any more compilation...why dont you find out his average against test playing nations in the past 2 years and compare that with some other players of our team ?

    By Blogger worma, at 14:55  

  • ok boss...dead rubbers dont count, rested bowlers dont count, less than 3 good innings in a series dont count, and obviously weak opposition dont count - because, presumably, we can afford to loose that match. Why don't you do a compilation of his average in the matches you want to 'count' along with that of some of his team-mates to prove us the point you want to come to.

    By Blogger worma, at 15:10  

  • tiger, NZ are also supposedly not in prime form, haven't done well after the first game (I think allout in all three games?). I think their batsmen are in same kind of form. And despite batting deep, as Prem said, they apparently dont bat well. Their aggressive approach got them allout even against Zim. But agreed that we would have additional pressure of final (although NZ have also this 'final' pressure, they havent reachd many, and in their entire history have won only ICC knockout, Bond himeslf mentioned that they also have a 'finals' problem)
    If we are looking to bat first, then how can be have Raina supersub ?

    By Blogger worma, at 15:16  

  • yacrik, I cannot come up with stats for all the 'exclusion' criterias you have highlighted buddy ! And anyways, I dont need to, I dont have anything to prove. If you started this thread, then you must have a point. Do come up with the stats regarding that point, and then we discuss further.

    And I've seen that stat, its not about seamers, its about short ball. And I dont care how he plays the short balls if in the end he gets enough runs (which he does seem to, unless you come out with the stats of all those 'discounted' categories). We are all discussing Ganguly here not because he is getting out to short balls, but because he is not making enough runs.

    By Blogger worma, at 15:36  

  • tiger, you said we should bat first(which I agree) but then raina as supersub means if we have a batting crisis, we have to get him in, in place of a bowler, and thus be a bowler short.

    I agree with akshay, except the part that the Indians cannot bat well against Bond and Vettori. I dont think Bond bowls like that every day, and Vettori hasn't yet scared or scarrd us. He is a decent bowler, but I believe we can negotiate him also. If India bat second chasing a biggish total (270+) then it makes sense to attack Bond, maybe its not his best form day (on those days he would run through most sides).

    Also dont know if asterisk and obelisk can bat ;-)

    By Blogger worma, at 15:43  

  • last 100 ODIs

    SRT 50.0 13
    Dravid 43.6 3
    Kaif 33.7 2 (in 95 games)
    Yuvraj 31.98 2 (in 95 games)
    Ganguly 35.5 5
    Sehwag 32.9 6

    So...depends what you want to 'prove' right ?

    By Blogger worma, at 16:06  

  • I think India batting first seems fine provided that they understand the conditions well. If the pitch remains as good through the day, it might still be worthwhile to think about chasing. Other than Bond, I dont think the Indians are actually losing sleep over the rest of the bowlers. I am not underestimating Vettori but if Indians dont lose a lot of wickets early on, he's not as big a threat.

    People talk about chasing in a finals being a high-pressure affair. But setting a score brings pressure too because there'll be a target score in mind. Plus, Indians ahve some high-profile chases in finals, dont they?

    By Blogger Toney, at 16:08  

  • akshay, I agree that Bond would be all charged up, esp if he gets early wkts. I also agree, as you said, we should not be looking to see him off. I think they should attack him, except SG ducking the short ball on the body (not even that if its ill directed, outside off). I also hope he ducks :)...as he has been doing against Zim on friday.

    tiger I thought both rao and raina can bowl ? but anyways, I think supersub would be decided based on what we want to do. If we want to bat first, then get Karthik in. And batting first, if we do have a collapse, get him in place of Nehra maybe (if we have a disastrous collapse). Even Karthik can have a better day in bowling, he is a good bowler, it was his first match after a long time.

    By Blogger worma, at 16:12  

  • toney, true about the pitch. If the pitch has indeed helped us pull off these two chases relatively comfortably, then it means pitch is helpful early on. Although to me, in the Zim game, it looked pretty similar throughout. In the sense that even Agarkar and RP didn't move the ball that much, they were accurate, but so were Mahwire and Ireland early on.

    By Blogger worma, at 16:15  

  • Prem: This is Outlook's bid to give Iqbal the film a leg up.
    Regards
    Raj

    http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20050905&fname=Film+Iqbal+%28F%29&sid=1

    By Blogger Cleaning , at 23:06  

  • worma, a suggestion... if you could make the links in your blog open in a new window, that would help...

    By Blogger samc, at 01:28  

  • puranjoy, others, starting a new thread for the game now. 5 mins

    By Blogger worma, at 02:25  

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